How to kiss the joy as it flies?

Originally Posted by Starbuck

Hi Peacegarden
I attach deeply to things/people and obviously get hurt when life moves on, but I think I'd rather have the attachment and face the pain than never have been attached.

That's pretty interesting. I guess there is a certain beauty in the emotional roller coaster of life

[Jyotir]

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[Jyotir]

Hi peacegarden,


In the 'old days' one could detach from the world by renouncing everything, but in the current era that is increasingly difficult as there is an increasing interdependence (as an implicit oneness of existence becomes increasingly explicit). So detachment in and of itself is too vague a proposition, because it could refer to anything.

What we need detachment from is what is limiting and binding and ignorant, and that calls for discrimination (in the spiritual sense).

Joy comes from movement, newness, growth, self-discovery and that is nothing other than the realization and manifestation of the divine in and through each life in the temporal existence. Every being embodies this potential to be conscious of the divinity within, but in the ignorance of life we come in identified through the ego/mind (which is that ignorance) with the ignorance, false appearance, illusion of the world.

Our consciousness in and through the ignorant ego/mind identifies with what it is - that which is phenomenally 'undivine', even if essentially it is divine. That is the mechanism of attachment in the negative sense, simply the 'familiar' within and through the ignorance.

By a process of discrimination, one may experience the joy of becoming, by identifying with what we are becoming. That means detachment from the undivine - turning away from the unsatisfying ego-based reception of, and interaction with life - and attachment (surrender) to the divine in and through higher principle within as it increasingly identifies, unfolds and discovers itself through an evolution of consciousness in each life. That is the 'movement' within the action and change of life in identification with the divine which produces the delight of existence as the being becomes increasingly 'attached' to what is divine within oneself and in oneness with the same in others (inspiration) and detaches from the past experience of a phenomenal ignorance. It is the phenomenal ignorance that is being detached from, as the being increasingly surrenders to the divinity within, which is itself delight. Therein is the joy.


~ J

Originally Posted by Gem

Sure is causes me pain when I do, but I wonder, is suffering caused by attachments or is it more to do with fear of the pain? I ask myself, why is everyone adverse to attachments? Are they actually just trying to avoid being hurt?

That's interesting! It's certainly the pain that hurts. But sometimes we don't know it's coming.

It's like a fear trap, when we don't know how attached we are until it sinks in to our subconscious that it's gone. Like relationships for example, we may be desperate to move on, but when we end it, the ego bites us back because it became so attached. I've seen so many of my old friends stuck in relationships because they've tried ending them only to not be able to deal with the pain that comes up from being alone again, that they didn't realize was ever there.

I get it with memories of the past. I really want to be able to live in the moment and appreciate the beauty of the now, without missing the past so badly. Memories can be painful, even when they are good memories.

Jyotir - interesting post but I feel that you are using the word attachment in a peculiar way, i.e. surrender (to the divine). By surrendering we can become connected to the divine but I think to use the word attachment in this context (i.e. attachment by surrendering) is cumbersome...maybe the wrong word here? Just a thought - it could be just a question of semantics.

Originally Posted by peacegarden

That's interesting! It's certainly the pain that hurts. But sometimes we don't know it's coming.

It's like a fear trap, when we don't know how attached we are until it sinks in to our subconscious that it's gone. Like relationships for example, we may be desperate to move on, but when we end it, the ego bites us back because it became so attached. I've seen so many of my old friends stuck in relationships because they've tried ending them only to not be able to deal with the pain that comes up from being alone again, that they didn't realize was ever there.

I get it with memories of the past. I really want to be able to live in the moment and appreciate the beauty of the now, without missing the past so badly. Memories can be painful, even when they are good memories.

My experience of leaving a long term relationship (my choice) was also unexpectedly painful....but I realised (in retrospect) that this was just a natural transition period, i.e. temporary adjustment phase...(although it may seem to take ages).

I know what you mean about the pain of memories...even good ones. I feel that it tends to make us reflect on the difference between then and now. Maybe it's about being younger as much as anything else. If we are in a great space now, i.e. better than before, would the past good memory be as painful I wonder?

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by amy green

Jyotir - interesting post but I feel that you are using the word attachment in a peculiar way, i.e. surrender (to the divine).

Hi amy green,

Absolutely! (in the 'positive' sense vs. negative sense, i.e., attachment to ignorance)

Also, our surrender to the Divine is an active recognition of God's inseparable attachment to us (the Creation)

----
oops! You added to your post while i was responding. Yes , to agree with you, sometimes 'semantics' in these kinds of discussions (besides often frustrating) is simply the different ways people talk about the same universal truths using different terms, perspectives, etc. -- but this may also open doors of perception for others, and why it is good to share openly, jmo.

~ J

Originally Posted by amy green

My experience of leaving a long term relationship (my choice) was also unexpectedly painful....but I realised (in retrospect) that this was just a natural transition period, i.e. temporary adjustment phase...(although it may seem to take ages).

I know what you mean about the pain of memories...even good ones. I feel that it tends to make us reflect on the difference between then and now. Maybe it's about being younger as much as anything else. If we are in a great space now, i.e. better than before, would the past good memory be as painful I wonder?

Yeah I definitely see that there is an adjustment phase. We eventually let go and accept the now, after a lot of pain. But what is better than before? If we don't consider our current situation to be as good as the past, then we are expecting our existence should always be enjoyable.

But then I consider that if we become that attached to one person, or one possession without knowing it, how attached must we be to the world itself, sensuous existence, without knowing it. If it was suddenly taken away from us, what pain would come up then?

The Buddhists jump up and down about desire and to eliminate desire from one's life as the desire draws attachment. What can then ensue is simply more desire trying to eliminate desire.
To free from attachment we may attach to doctrine or teachers in order to help us reach our goal.
We seem to 'trade up' as we live and learn from our experiences. Simply taking a sword to attachment can be sheer ignorance unless there is understanding involved.
We go where we are required to in life and attachment is part of our learning experience. Enjoy it.

[Squatchit]

Originally Posted by Buzz

What can then ensue is simply more desire trying to eliminate desire.

And clinging onto the lack of clinging.