polis pagans vs. tribal pagans

Originally Posted by Animus27

I think this is a problem a lot of people have when they go back to pre-Christian religions; the notion of sacrifice and offering up something important can be unsettling... but I think it's of high importance to understand all of the aspects of why they did it. It was obviously a big event. But of course, I don't advocate sacrificing random people

Personally I don't have an issue with giving up something important if I feel it is necessary, although personally I don't think "the gods" need us to give up more than time and the desire to listen and learn. We rarely try to appease the gods like they used to because we know the sun is going to rise the morning after the solstice and our crops (here in the western world) rarely fail.

I am also not sure whether killing a slave was seen as something important. The way people saw slaves back then was the same as they viewed an animal. It's wasn't them giving a person, it was just another thing to kill.

Sorry, I just feel that if humanity is to progress we should look at what is necessary now and look to the future rather than try to recreate the past. I for one don't even want to go back to mediaeval England, let alone the dark ages before christianity came and watered what the people of the land were doing.

Originally Posted by breath

I'd like to ask on this.
How did the pagan community react to the tsunami and earth quakes. Would you believe that it was a deity who enacting these for a reason like the old pagans would have?

No I do not believe that these tragedies occurred because of some deity enforcing its will on mankind.

This is my practical few of looking a paganism. I am not a scholar so this are just my little ole view on the topic. Paganism of old was a earth based religion of those whose lives and livelihoods depended on the environment in which they lived. I believe much of their beliefs in different deities stemmed from their lack of understanding the science of their world. They believed unseen forces where to blame or be credited for things we now understand as environmental sciences. Paganism in my opinion has been transformed into a way of spiritual belief that has respect and awe for creation and involves beliefs in some sort of God/god/goddess. A pagan was defined at times in history as simply one who dwells in the country and keeps the old beliefs as opposed to the established churches of the time. There was a time in history when those who understood the ways of nature in such were considered evil because it went against the teachings of the church. Science and religion did not get along well. I believe God can speak to me in any way and all of creation is my classroom. There are those who have a differing view of Paganism and I am sure their practices and rituals are not like mine as mine are not like theirs. I do not think that the Paganism of old is like the Paganism of today because we as the human race are not the same as in ancient times.

Originally Posted by tilia

Personally I don't have an issue with giving up something important if I feel it is necessary, although personally I don't think "the gods" need us to give up more than time and the desire to listen and learn. We rarely try to appease the gods like they used to because we know the sun is going to rise the morning after the solstice and our crops (here in the western world) rarely fail.

Of course the sun will rise! But the act of sacrifice (not necessarily blood of any sort) is a sign of devotion. And while it's totally dependent upon the pantheon of deities in question, it's still considered universal to all religions in some form. And as for whether the gods need or don't, is dependent upon the pantheon. The Egyptian gods seemed to have NEEDED food and drink offerings, there are records of priestly rituals were, in order to get a god to do something, as in remove a drought or disease, they'd threaten them. Telling them that their offerings will rot on the altars and the sun-boat will never rise again. The idea of the gods not needing, or wanting anything is a really strange question and from a theological point of view, impossible to answer universally. But one can be sure that the idea of the gods not needing nor wanting anything stems from the post-Christian influence, where our conception of the divine is still heavily shaped by Christian theology and cosmology. Thus, if one wishes to honor pre-Christian deities, one has to understand the worldview and culture they developed in and the whys and hows of worship, which can differ greatly from culture to culture. Even if then to simply modify it for the modern world.

Originally Posted by tilia

I am also not sure whether killing a slave was seen as something important. The way people saw slaves back then was the same as they viewed an animal. It's wasn't them giving a person, it was just another thing to kill.

Yes, in some civilizations it was very cold-blooded, from our point of view. Even so, understanding the purpose of it can shed a great deal of knowledge on the mindset of the peoples who held x.y.u deity in high esteem. Of course I am not advocating human sacrifice though

Sorry, I just feel that if humanity is to progress we should look at what is necessary now and look to the future rather than try to recreate the past. I for one don't even want to go back to mediaeval England, let alone the dark ages before christianity came and watered what the people of the land were doing.

This is that post-Christian influence (and it's children, the hard atheists) to some degree; to see the past as rather barbaric and uncivilized, and rejoice in how great we are now.
While we do have many awesome benefits of modern living and we have progressed far from a scientific point of view, judging by the spiritual state of many people, we're lacking something, or we are engrossed in something unwholesome. So one can wonder how far the wings of progress have taken us in that respect.


Take care

Originally Posted by Animus27

Of course the sun will rise! But the act of sacrifice (not necessarily blood of any sort) is a sign of devotion. And while it's totally dependent upon the pantheon of deities in question, ...... Thus, if one wishes to honor pre-Christian deities, one has to understand the worldview and culture they developed in and the whys and hows of worship, which can differ greatly from culture to culture. Even if then to simply modify it for the modern world.

Ah well, that all depends on your personal "style" of paganism. I don't worship any pantheonic deities at all. Yes I have a Bast on my alter for my cats but beyond that it is purely Mother Earth and Father Sky for me. My God representation is actually a Buddha, but I am pondering something equally non-pagan.

To me it is about the balance of male and female, the cycle of the seasons, the spirits of place, the earth elders we share this planet with and the energies of the planet and cosmos that are important and not a group of personas that split down the male and female aspects of the whole into manageable chunks.

This is that post-Christian influence (and it's children, the hard atheists) to some degree; to see the past as rather barbaric and uncivilized, and rejoice in how great we are now.
While we do have many awesome benefits of modern living and we have progressed far from a scientific point of view, judging by the spiritual state of many people, we're lacking something, or we are engrossed in something unwholesome. So one can wonder how far the wings of progress have taken us in that respect.

I don't think we are better than people of the past, they were so much more in tune with nature and with the spirits of place. But I am also realistic in how awful their lives were. I did medieval reenactment for 10 years and learned a lot about how ordinary people lived.... I am certain that those lives were not as easy as we have it now.

I don't necessarily see modern paganism as "progress" more "right for the time". I agree with what Nightowl says when s/he said

Paganism of old was a earth based religion of those whose lives and livelihoods depended on the environment in which they lived. I believe much of their beliefs in different deities stemmed from their lack of understanding the science of their world. They believed unseen forces where to blame or be credited for things we now understand as environmental sciences. Paganism in my opinion has been transformed into a way of spiritual belief that has respect and awe for creation and involves beliefs in some sort of God/god/goddess.

I don't think the people back then considered themselves spiritual, it was seen as necessary to do the things they did to appease the gods because there was no option. Now we know that the sun will rise we can spend less time "appeasing" and more time "learning" and being guided by Spirit in whatever form It speaks to us.