No Self

[BlueSky]

In the recent past I have realized so much about what I call the fabric of life. I can see clearly that we are an expression coming forth from a relative nothingness and returning to that same relative nothingness is a journey that I see as life.



Lately though, I see something else and that is, for this fabric to exist, as I see it, then there cannot be anything about this expression called me that can contain what some call a soul, atman or even a higher self. We simply return to nothingness. Our existence is our being but it ends there.



Furthermore, it follows, to me, that this expression must be hardwired, predisposed to act the way it does and to think the way it does. There is nothing there to act or think. Even the act to ignore ones thoughts, since there is no one to have those thoughts and no one to ignore those thoughts, is basically a hard-wired response from an individual expression which follows its own path back to its source, relative nothingness.



I’m posting this here because what I’m suggesting seems to fall into Buddhism. No self, no souls, etc.



I’d be interested in any comments. Imagine life with no self, no improving, no choice, no afterlife. Who would want that? Are we all avoiding seeing that? Is this what The Buddha saw?



Here's the thing...I hope not! lol



Thanks for listening

[sky]

Originally Posted by Self

In the recent past I have realized so much about what I call the fabric of life. I can see clearly that we are an expression coming forth from a relative nothingness and returning to that same relative nothingness is a journey that I see as life.



Lately though, I see something else and that is, for this fabric to exist, as I see it, then there cannot be anything about this expression called me that can contain what some call a soul, atman or even a higher self. We simply return to nothingness. Our existence is our being but it ends there.



Furthermore, it follows, to me, that this expression must be hardwired, predisposed to act the way it does and to think the way it does. There is nothing there to act or think. Even the act to ignore ones thoughts, since there is no one to have those thoughts and no one to ignore those thoughts, is basically a hard-wired response from an individual expression which follows its own path back to its source, relative nothingness.



I’m posting this here because what I’m suggesting seems to fall into Buddhism. No self, no souls, etc.



I’d be interested in any comments. Imagine life with no self, no improving, no choice, no afterlife. Who would want that? Are we all avoiding seeing that? Is this what The Buddha saw?



Here's the thing...I hope not! lol



Thanks for listening

The Buddha says in no uncertain terms in his last sutra, the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra:

"Those who abandon the teaching given in this sutra concerning the tathagata-garbha [i.e. the Buddha-Essence in beings or True Self] are just like cattle. For example, just as people who intend to commit suicide will cause themselves extreme misery, similarly you should know that those ungrateful people who reject the tathagata-garbha and teach non-Self cause themselves extreme misery."



If you think of ' Not Self ' rather than 'No/None Self ' it is easier to understand. The Buddha taught of our true self, the real self not the worldly self that we believe is who we are.

[RyanWind]

I can give my opinion based on my perception:

Nothingness is an idea. So it too is dropped.

What I am seeking has nothing to do with ideas, even ideas about what it is. It's just where I want to be, in this present moment, and what I want to be a part of now. Sometimes I read posts about these kinds of topics, not really referring to this one of yours, but everything in the post sounds right but I feel there is something missing or wrong. I usually come to the conclusion that what is wrong is there is too much self in the posts. You know like , I, I, I,.....
They might be saying, I am nothing, which sounds good, but the post is full of I. So much concern for what they are experiencing or not experiencing. So much concern about themselves.

It's not that I get rid of myself or find myself or become nothing... these are all ideas. It's just that I simply drop ideas. If you try to imagine what this is like, you end up with all kinds of false beliefs and thoughts and concepts about it. It is nothing, simple, not a big deal at all. It is just letting go of the mental world in each moment. Take a deep breath, give up everything, all the religion, spiritual teachings, ideas of needing to be something or become something, and just be free. Free from ideas from others and free from your own ideas.

It's not that we are seeking nothing, because nothing is an idea. We just be present now with nothing else. So the ideas of not existing etc come from thought imagining what it will be like. Really we find we have never been more fully there or here. Thought and ideas are just things we focus on, if we stop focusing on them, we are still here.

The "nothing" refers to what we are as far as what one is responding with or interacting with. This too doesn't happen overnight or instantly. I can let go of ideas and the mental world and just be present, but self as ideas and the mental world doesn't suddenly give up and go away. It still tries to make itself known and the center of our attention. While we may be able to put some aspects of it away quite easily, other parts still worm their way in there and pretend to not be there as anything besides ones self.

So it may be a long journey, but you keep at it. Lose it pick it up back again. Over time, you get better at staying present in the now while not identified with the mental conceptual world.

It really can be an impossible thing to communicate because in it, nothing, as ideas or teachings, is a part of it. But then there is a "knowing" or "knowledge" present in it which is non verbal yet known. My advice is don't worry about what it is or what you are. Just be. It you let go of ideas, you let go of needing to define or explain it anyway.

You don't go away or disappear or become nothing. It will never be anything other than you. The only thing that changes is what you hold onto as you in each moment.

Here is an example:

Say you walk into your kitchen and see a giant pile of dirty dishes and think, "sheesh what a mess, I don't want to wash all of this." Then you begin washing the dishes and have this general feeling of discontent because you are doing something you don't want to do. An fully enlightened person would not believe or accept any thoughts judging that activity. To them, it would make no difference if they were skiing down a mountain, laying by the pool sipping a cool drink, or doing those dishes. It would make absolutely no difference. The reason it would not make a difference to them is because conceptual thought is no longer what dictates their experience.

It may sound unbelievable but it is a fact that the only reason a person may prefer laying by the pool over washing dishes is because of a thought. A thought tells us it is true and we believe that thought. Some thoughts are very conditioned into us and hard to let go of and others not so much. So that's why I say it doesn't happen overnight. You get tastes of enlightenment, you do it in little steps. You learn to drop some ideas but not all ideas. It's a journey.

Something else that pops up when this subject is discussed is ideas of right and wrong. People think, oh if I don't pay attention to or believe any of my thoughts, then I can do anything I want. There is no right or wrong, This is also just an idea. This is assuming knowledge of right and wrong only comes from thought, and this is not true. Our very being has a code of ethics and morality, compassion and empathy, and really it is thought, that can reason away this base of knowledge so that we justify immoral behaviors. Our unconditioned self is a good, moral thing, and it is the self that is created by conditioning and thought, that leads to immorality.

[sky]

Sabbasava-Sutta

The Sabbasava Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 2[4]) also mentions 16 questions which are seen as "unwise reflection" and lead to attachment to views relating to a*self.*

What am I? Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, did I become what in the past? What shall I be in future? How shall I be in future?Having been what, shall I become what in future? Whence came this person?

The Buddha states that it is unwise to be attached to both views of having and perceiving a self and views about not having a self. Any view which sees the self as "permanent, stable, everlasting, unchanging, remaining the same for ever and ever" is "becoming enmeshed in views, a jungle of views, a wilderness of views; scuffling in views, the agitation (struggle) of views, the fetter of views."

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by sky123

Sabbasava-Sutta

The Sabbasava Sutta (Majjhima Nikaya 2[4]) also mentions 16 questions which are seen as "unwise reflection" and lead to attachment to views relating to a*self.*

What am I? Did I exist in the past? Did I not exist in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, did I become what in the past? What shall I be in future? How shall I be in future?Having been what, shall I become what in future? Whence came this person?

The Buddha states that it is unwise to be attached to both views of having and perceiving a self and views about not having a self. Any view which sees the self as "permanent, stable, everlasting, unchanging, remaining the same for ever and ever" is "becoming enmeshed in views, a jungle of views, a wilderness of views; scuffling in views, the agitation (struggle) of views, the fetter of views."

Sounds good to me but to be clear, I'm not saying there is no self, I'm saying there is no self that this I can see. I also am not saying there is a Self. That's why this resonates with me.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

I can give my opinion based on my perception:

Nothingness is an idea. So it too is dropped.

What I am seeking has nothing to do with ideas, even ideas about what it is. It's just where I want to be, in this present moment, and what I want to be a part of now. Sometimes I read posts about these kinds of topics, not really referring to this one of yours, but everything in the post sounds right but I feel there is something missing or wrong. I usually come to the conclusion that what is wrong is there is too much self in the posts. You know like , I, I, I,.....
They might be saying, I am nothing, which sounds good, but the post is full of I. So much concern for what they are experiencing or not experiencing. So much concern about themselves.

It's not that I get rid of myself or find myself or become nothing... these are all ideas. It's just that I simply drop ideas. If you try to imagine what this is like, you end up with all kinds of false beliefs and thoughts and concepts about it. It is nothing, simple, not a big deal at all. It is just letting go of the mental world in each moment. Take a deep breath, give up everything, all the religion, spiritual teachings, ideas of needing to be something or become something, and just be free. Free from ideas from others and free from your own ideas.

It's not that we are seeking nothing, because nothing is an idea. We just be present now with nothing else. So the ideas of not existing etc come from thought imagining what it will be like. Really we find we have never been more fully there or here. Thought and ideas are just things we focus on, if we stop focusing on them, we are still here.

The "nothing" refers to what we are as far as what one is responding with or interacting with. This too doesn't happen overnight or instantly. I can let go of ideas and the mental world and just be present, but self as ideas and the mental world doesn't suddenly give up and go away. It still tries to make itself known and the center of our attention. While we may be able to put some aspects of it away quite easily, other parts still worm their way in there and pretend to not be there as anything besides ones self.

So it may be a long journey, but you keep at it. Lose it pick it up back again. Over time, you get better at staying present in the now while not identified with the mental conceptual world.

It really can be an impossible thing to communicate because in it, nothing, as ideas or teachings, is a part of it. But then there is a "knowing" or "knowledge" present in it which is non verbal yet known. My advice is don't worry about what it is or what you are. Just be. It you let go of ideas, you let go of needing to define or explain it anyway.

You don't go away or disappear or become nothing. It will never be anything other than you. The only thing that changes is what you hold onto as you in each moment.

Here is an example:

Say you walk into your kitchen and see a giant pile of dirty dishes and think, "sheesh what a mess, I don't want to wash all of this." Then you begin washing the dishes and have this general feeling of discontent because you are doing something you don't want to do. An fully enlightened person would not believe or accept any thoughts judging that activity. To them, it would make no difference if they were skiing down a mountain, laying by the pool sipping a cool drink, or doing those dishes. It would make absolutely no difference. The reason it would not make a difference to them is because conceptual thought is no longer what dictates their experience.

It may sound unbelievable but it is a fact that the only reason a person may prefer laying by the pool over washing dishes is because of a thought. A thought tells us it is true and we believe that thought. Some thoughts are very conditioned into us and hard to let go of and others not so much. So that's why I say it doesn't happen overnight. You get tastes of enlightenment, you do it in little steps. You learn to drop some ideas but not all ideas. It's a journey.

Something else that pops up when this subject is discussed is ideas of right and wrong. People think, oh if I don't pay attention to or believe any of my thoughts, then I can do anything I want. There is no right or wrong, This is also just an idea. This is assuming knowledge of right and wrong only comes from thought, and this is not true. Our very being has a code of ethics and morality, compassion and empathy, and really it is thought, that can reason away this base of knowledge so that we justify immoral behaviors. Our unconditioned self is a good, moral thing, and it is the self that is created by conditioning and thought, that leads to immorality.

Thanks Ryan but your post is just too far off topic to comment on. I want to discuss this with people who can relate. These are not ideas and yes there Is an I here just as there is a you experiencing the present but the difference for me is that this I is a part of the experience.

[thebeautifulsacred]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

I can give my opinion based on my perception:

Nothingness is an idea. So it too is dropped.

What I am seeking has nothing to do with ideas, even ideas about what it is. It's just where I want to be, in this present moment, and what I want to be a part of now. Sometimes I read posts about these kinds of topics, not really referring to this one of yours, but everything in the post sounds right but I feel there is something missing or wrong. I usually come to the conclusion that what is wrong is there is too much self in the posts. You know like , I, I, I,.....
They might be saying, I am nothing, which sounds good, but the post is full of I. So much concern for what they are experiencing or not experiencing. So much concern about themselves.

It's not that I get rid of myself or find myself or become nothing... these are all ideas. It's just that I simply drop ideas. If you try to imagine what this is like, you end up with all kinds of false beliefs and thoughts and concepts about it. It is nothing, simple, not a big deal at all. It is just letting go of the mental world in each moment. Take a deep breath, give up everything, all the religion, spiritual teachings, ideas of needing to be something or become something, and just be free. Free from ideas from others and free from your own ideas.

It's not that we are seeking nothing, because nothing is an idea. We just be present now with nothing else. So the ideas of not existing etc come from thought imagining what it will be like. Really we find we have never been more fully there or here. Thought and ideas are just things we focus on, if we stop focusing on them, we are still here.

The "nothing" refers to what we are as far as what one is responding with or interacting with. This too doesn't happen overnight or instantly. I can let go of ideas and the mental world and just be present, but self as ideas and the mental world doesn't suddenly give up and go away. It still tries to make itself known and the center of our attention. While we may be able to put some aspects of it away quite easily, other parts still worm their way in there and pretend to not be there as anything besides ones self.

So it may be a long journey, but you keep at it. Lose it pick it up back again. Over time, you get better at staying present in the now while not identified with the mental conceptual world.

It really can be an impossible thing to communicate because in it, nothing, as ideas or teachings, is a part of it. But then there is a "knowing" or "knowledge" present in it which is non verbal yet known. My advice is don't worry about what it is or what you are. Just be. It you let go of ideas, you let go of needing to define or explain it anyway.

You don't go away or disappear or become nothing. It will never be anything other than you. The only thing that changes is what you hold onto as you in each moment.

Here is an example:

Say you walk into your kitchen and see a giant pile of dirty dishes and think, "sheesh what a mess, I don't want to wash all of this." Then you begin washing the dishes and have this general feeling of discontent because you are doing something you don't want to do. An fully enlightened person would not believe or accept any thoughts judging that activity. To them, it would make no difference if they were skiing down a mountain, laying by the pool sipping a cool drink, or doing those dishes. It would make absolutely no difference. The reason it would not make a difference to them is because conceptual thought is no longer what dictates their experience.

It may sound unbelievable but it is a fact that the only reason a person may prefer laying by the pool over washing dishes is because of a thought. A thought tells us it is true and we believe that thought. Some thoughts are very conditioned into us and hard to let go of and others not so much. So that's why I say it doesn't happen overnight. You get tastes of enlightenment, you do it in little steps. You learn to drop some ideas but not all ideas. It's a journey.

Something else that pops up when this subject is discussed is ideas of right and wrong. People think, oh if I don't pay attention to or believe any of my thoughts, then I can do anything I want. There is no right or wrong, This is also just an idea. This is assuming knowledge of right and wrong only comes from thought, and this is not true. Our very being has a code of ethics and morality, compassion and empathy, and really it is thought, that can reason away this base of knowledge so that we justify immoral behaviors. Our unconditioned self is a good, moral thing, and it is the self that is created by conditioning and thought, that leads to immorality.

Yes! Exactly!

[Within Silence]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Here is an example:

Say you walk into your kitchen and see a giant pile of dirty dishes and think, "sheesh what a mess, I don't want to wash all of this." Then you begin washing the dishes and have this general feeling of discontent because you are doing something you don't want to do. An fully enlightened person would not believe or accept any thoughts judging that activity. To them, it would make no difference if they were skiing down a mountain, laying by the pool sipping a cool drink, or doing those dishes. It would make absolutely no difference. The reason it would not make a difference to them is because conceptual thought is no longer what dictates their experience.


It may sound unbelievable but it is a fact that the only reason a person may prefer laying by the pool over washing dishes is because of a thought. A thought tells us it is true and we believe that thought. Some thoughts are very conditioned into us and hard to let go of and others not so much. So that's why I say it doesn't happen overnight. You get tastes of enlightenment, you do it in little steps. You learn to drop some ideas but not all ideas. It's a journey.
.

This logic is flawed; sitting by the pool is not a thought, neither is washing the dishes, these are actions. The reason someone may enjoy laying by the pool over doing the dishes is because they simply enjoy it over washing the dishes, is this so difficult too see? It sounds like your "fully enlightened" person is the walking dead, a mindless zombie just getting through life without any enjoyments whatsoever. I understand that the conceptual thought that I like something is not the actual enjoyment of it, like reading the menu does not cause one to enjoy the taste of the food. But, it is not wrong to have enjoyments in life! It is not wrong to like this and dislike that, this is our freedom, and one also has the right to be indifferent to it all also. The thought that all conceptual thought is wrong is also a conceptual thought and so it is also wrong with this reasoning, it defeats itself.

And I guarantee that if the "fully enlightened" person walked into the kitchen and there was a giant man holding her daughter hostage with a knife to her throat, it would make a huge difference if the man slit her throat or not. You're examples may steer people in the wrong direction. This is not enlightenment, and if it was I would reject ever attaining it with every fiber of my being. You're attempting to remove what makes us human and unique. And I understand what you're trying to point to, but your example is not doing it justice. Just my two cents and I am not trying to cause a problem, but really look at what this example is saying.

Sometimes we need to wash the dishes, sometimes we sit by the pool, so what. If I dislike washing the dishes then I dislike it, so what.

[RyanWind]

Everyone seeks the same thing, a happy and fulfilling life. People just seek these goals in different ways. One person may be a hedonist and seek these things by selfishly seeking sensual pleasure all the time. Someone else may become a cloistered nun seeking happiness and fulfillment in that way of life. Someone may get married and have 12 kids. Someone else chooses to live alone in the woods with their dog. One person collects sports cars and owns hotels and another person becomes a monk and owns nothing. If it makes you happy, and doesn't harm others, nothing wrong with anyway of life. If you believe in karma or join a religion, you can add in other considerations such as helping others etc. If seeking to understand ones mind and thoughts doesn't make a person happier and a better person, then they should not pursue such things.

I would also add a heck of a lot of life is not a choice we have to make. Some people are born with mental or physical handicaps, some get abused, some have horrible traumatic things happen to them or people they love. So finding a path to be happy and content in life can be very difficult. Life is not easy that's for sure. That's one reason why some turn to religion and god, because they feel they can't make it on their own. Life is too overwhelming. One doesn't seek to be free of their mind and ego if everything is great and positive in their lives. The turn to these things because they find their thoughts and mind lead to conflict and suffering and so they seek to find a path to a better place, and to becoming a better person.

Remember that old song Imagine by John Lennon? Sometimes becoming less, makes you more.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Everyone seeks the same thing, a happy and fulfilling life. People just seek these goals in different ways. One person may be a hedonist and seek these things by selfishly seeking sensual pleasure all the time. Someone else may become a cloistered nun seeking happiness and fulfillment in that way of life. Someone may get married and have 12 kids. Someone else chooses to live alone in the woods with their dog. One person collects sports cars and owns hotels and another person becomes a monk and owns nothing. If it makes you happy, and doesn't harm others, nothing wrong with anyway of life. If you believe in karma or join a religion, you can add in other considerations such as helping others etc. If seeking to understand ones mind and thoughts doesn't make a person happier and a better person, then they should not pursue such things.

I would also add a heck of a lot of life is not a choice we have to make. Some people are born with mental or physical handicaps, some get abused, some have horrible traumatic things happen to them or people they love. So finding a path to be happy and content in life can be very difficult. Life is not easy that's for sure. That's one reason why some turn to religion and god, because they feel they can't make it on their own. Life is too overwhelming. One doesn't seek to be free of their mind and ego if everything is great and positive in their lives. The turn to these things because they find their thoughts and mind lead to conflict and suffering and so they seek to find a path to a better place, and to becoming a better person.

Remember that old song Imagine by John Lennon? Sometimes becoming less, makes you more.

I have come to see that every expression feels a pull towards that which it came from. That pull looks like many things, of which include seeking happiness but it's all just many ways to satisfy a natural movement towards our source. That's the goal, not happiness although it feels the same