To who/m or what does ...

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hi G.S

I think there maybe a false impression had with some so just to be clear, I am not looking for any specific answer/s, David suggested that I pray for answer/s lol, there really is no need .

What has been ongoing is to entertain a variety of ideas that pertain to one’s immediate awareness / knowings relating to their experience .

It is a method of questioning themselves in regards to what they believe is happening and as to why it is, call it a form of self enquiry .

Peeps can take things at face value if they like and all is good and peeps can judge the so called bad people and throw rotten fruit at them all day and wave their finger until it drops off ..

There are answers to one’s ignorance, it just depends on if they have access to them or not .

The world / universe is only a mystery if one hasn’t an idea of what is going on ..

It’s no mystery that there is ignorance to that fact, it is how it is for all, it just depends on if one is content of not knowing that there could be more to what’s going on than initially thought ..

I see in life that lots of peeps have solid opinions but when questioned they go a little quiet and things are not as solid as first thought ..


x daz x

Hey there Daz...I appreciate your clarification there. I too had just assumed you were fielding the question to see what others thought and to have a deeper conversation on it, just as you've clarified. A good conversation is really its own reward, isn't it?

I see GS was responding to one of my priors. Whilst I see you have gone quiet on my last. So I just wanted to note that perhaps those that have gone quiet are contemplating, or revising the topic. Or, perhaps they've lost heart. Or run up against what appeared to be a closed mind on the topic.

Be assured, my mind is not closed or fixed and I would hope yours is not either (as you're running this thread and fielding responses ;) ). I simply reflect my awareness to date, that and also what I've directly confirmed with the guides, which IMO is far more transparent than what another grieving soul desperately sought through their channeling. We need to be sensitive to the context there and not take it as complete or eternal or universal truth, IMO. And I say this will great compassion for all involved

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

It's with thought patterns like these where this thread starts breaking down, and for all the 20-plus pages of posts is Daz any closer to an answer? Really

Hey there GS :) ...that depends on Daz, but so much of it is really about the journey and the sharing, isn't it? Look at all this good conversation

BTW it's all about the deconstruction...of anything or anyone. It's all about breaking it down ;) Not breaking it. Just be present and being engaged with it.

For me, the understanding the whom or what isn't going to come from looking through the lens of Spirituality and ignoring all the rest, because that's a long way from the 'bigger picture' and until we understand ourselves as a more holistic system we're not going to have much of a hope of answering this thread.

First I will say that I broadly agree that [regardless of labels used], a broad perspective that encompasses what we call a multidisciplinary approach is always a good one to have, along with other perspectives where more detail may be good, as well.

But, even the Einsteins and Edisons alluded to the fact that epiphany (illumination) comes from another realm. The realm of spirit. So you need the metaphysical as well, and it is by definition unconstrained by and outside of the scope of science, which studies the material realm, the material universe.

It's not either/or...one is outside or beyond all either/ors that we can posit.

Roger Penrose, a Nobel Prize-winning scientist said that it's easier to describe a black hole than it is to understand how a human comes to a decision.

That's because the realm of consciousness is metaphysical, meaning, it is beyond even the origins of the material realm.
It has been called the "hard problem of consciousness" precisely because its origin and its very existence is beyond the scope of science, for all that they can and do measure various observable aspects at the secondary levels of origin. E.g., our physical energy signals (EEG readings and others) can be observed/measured and used to categorise our phase of sleep.

A Spanish psychologist concluded that decisions that are apparently made by the mind are not actually made by the mind, the mind takes more of a 'committee chairman' role in the process and takes credit for the 'thinking power' used by the rest of the aspects that come into play. One of the most fundamental aspects of the decision-making process is survival and that's been hardwired into us since we've been afraid of lions and tigers and bears, oh my. And before you say it, if you do all this 'light good, dark bad' stuff then you still have your survival instincts at play. On the 'software' side we have cognitive dissonance - which will most likely happen here; lock onto Spirituality and lock out everything else that the crazy Greeny is talking about. Hate to say it peeps but that 'everything else' hallucinates your conscious reality.

IMO, you are getting at one or two of the aspects of the "hard problem" that is typically glossed over in much of the scientific literature (often by putting them in the "easy problem" category, LOL). And this has always struck me because they are such nontrivial things. They are things of great significance regarding the "hard problem".

One, we have these subconscious survival traits and also these core soul traits -- all coming from these different levels of consciousness which comprise each of us -- and all of which we know as experiential phenomenon of consciousness at various levels (including the body, the heart/self/Self, and our interbeing with others and all that is). That is, we feel and experience all these things, some momentarily and some long-term or more continously. Our holistic knowledge of ourselves is primitive so we simply call these things "survival traits" or "basic emotions" or "family traits", etc.

Regarding the "location" of these feelings and emotions, it is much the same as with memories. They cannot be found to be located anywhere in the brain (i.e., your specific heightened fear of drowning or your PTSD...or your soul's love of learning across many lifetimes...or whatever it may be) but rather are only transmitted to the receiver in certain areas of the transmitter (brain). Although we may mimic some physical responses in the lab through various manipulations by inducing these emotions through stimuli or putting folks through certain stresses, etc.

The thing is, these subconscious aspects at core of who we are, are protected...they are not easily discovered or engaged with. They are NOT located in or accessible to & manageable by the waking conscious mind by default. They are NOT readily accessible without great reflection, discipline, and conscious choices to engage in reflection and discipline. There is a veil of forgetfulness, an obstruction, one which must be gently but actively engaged and stepped through, in the realm of heart and spirit. And that is clearly by design...meaning, there has to be a level of awareness and ultimately of engaged, conscious choice present to come to know oneself more truly, madly, and deeply.

Another is that much of what scientists have called the "easy problems" of consciousness, involving how we retrieve memories and do mental processing, are not at all complete or accurate. They too allude to the hard problem all over again, even as the researchers dance around it. That is, there is no place in the brain where we can extract the unique individual memories, and play them back at will in the laboratory.

That's because consciousness is omnipresent, even our individuated piece that we call our own. Our brain is a receiver, translator, and processor focused for our individuated bit first, with all the rest coming second. It has certain designated areas of functionality...that's it. So consciousness will never be found in the brain...rather we will only refine the mapping and hopefully our ability to heal and repair it, as well.

Consciousness is epiphenomenal, that means it doesn't take an active part in it's own development but is emergent from all the other aspects and systems that are at play as we trot quite happily through the forums. Consciousness is not emergent of matter but matter and therefore the rest of reality is emergent of consciousness. Hate to say this folks but Spirituality has it backwards.

You can't have a conscious thought or choice, it's scientifically impossible. You can have a thought or make a choice, then a fraction of a second you're conscious of it. If you don't like it then you can 'recycle' it or override it but that choice is also subconscious. The majority of your Spirituality is built by the subconscious.

There is always an interplay between the consciousness of the body and mind and that of the heart, which is linked directly to our eternal consciousness. We can think of the heart as a multidimensional singularity, IMO. As a healer, I know this and have "seen" this very well, the interplay between different levels of consciousness. There is a truth in the body and in the heart that is far deeper and wiser than that the mind (intellect) knows. And IMO that is precisely due to their direct link to the reality of the metaphysical realms, to their alignment with source. Which the waking consciousness and intellect takes lifetimes to grasp, apparently

But I don't agree that the only experience of consciousness we have is only of the body or of the mind. Least of all, of just the mind, LOL. I know that is one school of scientific thought but like all these things, IMO you must take it with a grain of salt and enjoy any of the interesting research they've done for what it is. And no matter how you slice it, the body and the heart are inseparable, and as one's centre, the heart leads. So IMO we can't cut out the heart simply because it's inconvenient. And it really is at times, isn't it?

If you really want to have some awesomeness, the brain has quantum-capable microtubules that have quantum entanglement with the field of potentiality that is Spirit. Way cool. Scientifically you are already quantum-entangled with God and just as likely quantum-entangled in some small way to each other. If you resonate with what someone's saying then it's likely that the entanglement is doing its thing.

Can we seriously come up with the answers to Life, the Universe, Everything (and to who/m or what does.....) while completely ignoring so many major aspects of what makes us tick in the first place?

You raise some good points worth discussing further GS...I hope I've raised some good points as well Either way, we can certainly enjoy discussing them a bit further :)

And I do resonate with many of the theories and implications of quantum physics and quantum mechanics -- it will be even more interesting to see how some of these implications scale up to the classical level of matter in the material realm. You know, the level at which we all exist.

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi G-L


Sometimes those times are the most informative, when we Spiritually poke around in the undergrowth with a stick. If nothing else it frees the mind a little and leaves it open for something else to come through.


I find the mystery more inspirational than knowing the answers because it means there is room for discovery and growth, those evaporate when you have all the answers. I can ignore any knowledge of weather systems just to go play in the puddles.



Is it not enough to simply exist?

Yes I agree, self enquiry is what can cut through the mustard lol, the carrot that dangles in such a way where you keep moving inch by inch towards it ..

There is a time where we are drawn within to understand and realise what we are and what we are is all about ..

There is the magic and beauty also in not knowing and having wonder is wonderfully creative and imaginative ..

Is it not enough to simply exist you ask ..

For those whose existence is full of suffering I would say not at a point where enough is enough .. ..


x daz x

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there Daz...I appreciate your clarification there. I too had just assumed you were fielding the question to see what others thought and to have a deeper conversation on it, just as you've clarified. A good conversation is really its own reward, isn't it?

7L

Hey :)

I am seeing what others think in reflection of their beliefs .

I am exploring why they believe what they do ..

I am not asking myself the question although I am explaining my beliefs and as to why I entertain them .

There is a slight lack of answers across the board to be honest and G.S picked up on that after 20 pages am I any nearer the answer lol .

What is apparent and it is not concluded with disrespect is that there is no firm concrete evidence to substantiate anyone's belief other than what is in front of their eyes in the immediate .


x daz x

[7luminaries]

Hey there Daz :)

There is a slight lack of answers across the board to be honest and G.S picked up on that after 20 pages am I any nearer the answer lol .

Hahahaha sooo harsh, LOL So...for one, you've had loads of answers, so I tend to disagree there Dazzer. However, IMO the answers have mostly fallen into one or more of these categories:

Most said one of these, or both (for example, I would say both apply):
1- go inward to the heart centre to know the truth of observer "v" doer
2- observer "v" doer is false dualism as both are one

Whilst a few said sth like this:
3- observer is the only truth as the material realm is an illusion, or, it's all illusion (?)

You disagreed with the last...and there has not been much followup from those that posted the "doer is illusion" (or maybe it's "observer and doer are illusion"), I agree.
Perhaps if they don't get a "nondual" vibe, etc., they tend to leave off? As they are positing that eternal real is superior to temporal real, and if all is One, I would disagree with that. Everything has value, or nothing does, and I choose the former.

But the first two categories have yielded loads of responses. However, you've largely ignored the first category of response. And yet, that is a valid response to your question Just not one you were at yet ready to address or respond to. Which is also totally ok. But it may be a tad harsh on the rest to say you'd not got much in the way of responses.

The second category is where you find yourself and there is agreement there, so perhaps we can circle back to that. GS mentioned the quantum entanglement and, to be honest, that is absolutely on point and worth discussing with regard to oneself and the whole observer/doer issue. TBH I thought of mentioning it myself several times but didn't want to sidetrack the topic of the heart-centred response, which SEVERAL others had initially brought up in their response. TBH, it's not your way to just repeatedly discount the responses of others so I thought it might be best to air it out a bit more

We can definitely discuss the quantum entanglement and the quantum observer/doer apparent dichotomy, for certain. But I did want to respond back to you that you've had a boatload of good responses, quite on point to be honest, which you basically sidelined for your own reasons. But you must understand that this would not make a lot of sense to any of those responding at the level you seemed to be asking, who were giving you their honest response. Were you to come back with a response that met them and honoured them there, the convo would then open up in that area, as well. And you might be surprised what others and you yourself might have to offer there.

Back to the quantum aspects as they relate to this, well, "quantum" (as in seemingly paradoxical yet for us wholly natural) aspect of consciousness...observer "v" doer...I will say more here after you and/or GS add your thoughts

What is apparent and it is not concluded with disrespect is that there is no firm concrete evidence to substantiate anyone's belief other than what is in front of their eyes in the immediate .

None taken ;)

Yes, you're right there is no firm evidence other than that which each of us has experienced, as that is the essence of the journey. TBH it's funny you mention that. I'm sorry to say that for whatever reason, when I put my question on the topic of pre-life agreements to Michael "in public", he took me to a private area to respond (?). So I can only speak to what he told me privately...apparently he was not able to share it and I didn't ask why at the time. (Azrael was there as his minder before he took me aside, so somehow this is not info that can always be widely shared at their level...perhaps because folks are at different places or experiencing different challenges or burdens and thus will understand or perceive the agreements/disclaimers differently (???) Perhaps it would interfere with someone's healing at a crucial point, etc., like the woman you mentioned.

As an aside, I have come to apprehend that Azrael has a special interest in all of us due to his familiarity with everyone's souls as they pass in and out of physical life, and perhaps this info could cause others to fear or rage at death or, worse, at life as well. Anyway, I will ask again "in public", LOL, and report back.

Peace & blessings
7L

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there Daz :)

Hahahaha sooo harsh, LOL So...for one, you've had loads of answers, so I tend to disagree there Dazzer. However, IMO the answers have mostly fallen into one or more of these categories:

Most said one of these, or both (for example, I would say both apply):
1- go inward to the heart centre to know the truth of observer "v" doer
2- observer "v" doer is false dualism as both are one

Whilst a few said sth like this:
3- observer is the only truth as the material realm is an illusion, or, it's all illusion (?)

You disagreed with the last...and there has not been much followup from those that posted the "doer is illusion" (or maybe it's "observer and doer are illusion"), I agree.
Perhaps if they don't get a "nondual" vibe, etc., they tend to leave off? As they are positing that eternal real is superior to temporal real, and if all is One, I would disagree with that. Everything has value, or nothing does, and I choose the former.

But the first two categories have yielded loads of responses. However, you've largely ignored the first category of response. And yet, that is a valid response to your question Just not one you were at yet ready to address or respond to. Which is also totally ok. But it may be a tad harsh on the rest to say you'd not got much in the way of responses.

The second category is where you find yourself and there is agreement there, so perhaps we can circle back to that. GS mentioned the quantum entanglement and, to be honest, that is absolutely on point and worth discussing with regard to oneself and the whole observer/doer issue. TBH I thought of mentioning it myself several times but didn't want to sidetrack the topic of the heart-centred response, which SEVERAL others had initially brought up in their response. TBH, it's not your way to just repeatedly discount the responses of others so I thought it might be best to air it out a bit more

We can definitely discuss the quantum entanglement and the quantum observer/doer apparent dichotomy, for certain. But I did want to respond back to you that you've had a boatload of good responses, quite on point to be honest, which you basically sidelined for your own reasons. But you must understand that this would not make a lot of sense to any of those responding at the level you seemed to be asking, who were giving you their honest response. Were you to come back with a response that met them and honoured them there, the convo would then open up in that area, as well. And you might be surprised what others and you yourself might have to offer there.

Back to the quantum aspects as they relate to this, well, "quantum" (as in seemingly paradoxical yet for us wholly natural) aspect of consciousness...observer "v" doer...I will say more here after you and/or GS add your thoughts

None taken ;)

Yes, you're right there is no firm evidence other than that which each of us has experienced, as that is the essence of the journey. TBH it's funny you mention that. I'm sorry to say that for whatever reason, when I put my question on the topic of pre-life agreements to Michael "in public", he took me to a private area to respond (?). So I can only speak to what he told me privately...apparently he was not able to share it and I didn't ask why at the time. (Azrael was there as his minder before he took me aside, so somehow this is not info that can always be widely shared at their level...perhaps because folks are at different places or experiencing different challenges or burdens and thus will understand or perceive the agreements/disclaimers differently (???) Perhaps it would interfere with someone's healing at a crucial point, etc., like the woman you mentioned.

As an aside, I have come to apprehend that Azrael has a special interest in all of us due to his familiarity with everyone's souls as they pass in and out of physical life, and perhaps this info could cause others to fear or rage at death or, worse, at life as well. Anyway, I will ask again "in public", LOL, and report back.

Peace & blessings
7L

Hey :)

It really is okay for peeps not to follow up on my counter questions pertaining to their ideas / notions and beliefs . It will leave them food for thought or it won't and that's okay, but it will give peeps the sense of where I am coming from and reflects at times things are not as they seem to be . Things are not as they seem to be regarding why we suffer and what constitutes free will amongst other things .

Your right in that there has not been much follow up regarding the doer being illusory and such likes, the more questions are asked about that which is illusory always gets squashed when we delve a little deeper so instead of following up the illusory part and making a case for it one perhaps begins to see that it's a no brainer to start with and rather let sleeping dogs lie .

I think that happens often even when we look at the free will aspect to cry as explained, it's easy to say I have the free will to cry or not when you have the means to cry or not lol .

When G.S. spoke about there not being an answer anytime soon is based upon the level of the answer/s ..

I wasn't looking for the holy grail or the mother of all answers, I was in a way more open to the notion and fact that there needs all the facts at hand while also noting what energies lie at the heart of self and at the heart of spirit prior to incarnation .

Going back to the heart center or back to the Source of oneself or God is Love, (roughly translated) so no matter how we dress any expression up there is only what we are and what we are that is, at the heart of anything ..

We have to at some point keep going back to what we are be it the doer or observer, the lover or the abuser etc ..

There can be a quantum entanglement as G.S put it and one can leave it be entangled or one can try and unravel self and enquire ..

There are no right or wrong ways to go about how one does that or if there is the thought to simply let things be as they are without contemplating on it .

When the wind blows it blows, when it doesn't it doesn't .. it's all good .

This perhaps ties in with what you said about different levels and one challenges or burdens ..

This is actually what I was pushing a while back about the veil of forgetfulness .

Divine order comes to mind which on an immediate level doesn't reflect free will if one has to wait for the right moment .

Who/m or what put's divine order in motion is probably another question for another day .


x daz x

[davidsun]

I image-in that Paul Simon's lyric, "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest," which I think could well be rephrased as "Still a man thinks and feels what he wants to think and feel and ignores the rest," which in turn could also be rephrased as "Still a man thinks what his conditioning inclines him to think and ignores the rest," applies to all of us to some degree or other.

Which raises the question of whether or not one can change one's conditioning or inclinations in said regard, that is, assuming one 'wanted' :smile" to.

My 'sense' is that AI (Artificial Intelligence) programs which are programmed ('conditioned') lo learn -- that is to change (add to?) their own programming in ways which improve the effectiveness of their performance in relation to their 'prime' ('original programmer 'given') objective(s) -- can and so do do so.

In my view, there is no 'reason' which HI (Human Intelligence :smile) can't also function likewise.

To that 'end' - assuming any reader of this wishes (wants? ) to proceed in pursuit of said kind(s) of objective(s), I recommend self-programming affirmations (or mantras) like:

"Wherever I am, whatever comes my way, the very best is what I'll know, think, feel, do and say."

and

"I 'pray' (i.e. wish/want/believe) that my mind and heart will be(come) open to whatever it is that I am (presently) not appropriately seeing, feeling, appreciating, understanding, etc. which has the potential to lead me to bettering of the quality of my and others' Life experience and expression."

... or thoughts and wishes/beliefs to that effect.

Of course, if one thinks and feels that what one already (i.e. presently) thinks and feels (wants, etc.) is the very best one could, then the ideas/prayers/seekings/choices for improvement (i.e. change) would make no 'sense'. In that case completely affirming the thoughts and wishes that one presently has will make the most 'sense' and so be 'the way' one smugly continues to go - albeit 'outsiders' may see one as just going around in the same ol', same ol' 'fool'ish circle in that case.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Hey there GS :) ...that depends on Daz, but so much of it is really about the journey and the sharing, isn't it? Look at all this good conversation

BTW it's all about the deconstruction...of anything or anyone. It's all about breaking it down ;) Not breaking it. Just be present and being engaged with it.

Hi 7L


It's all about the beer and popcorn, sitting by the fireside and telling the stories.


It seems the same things appear once in a while and this one kind of brings me back a little. The good thing about this thread is that there isn't much 'we are not.... ' stuff and a little more grass roots.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

First I will say that I broadly agree that [regardless of labels used], a broad perspective that encompasses what we call a multidisciplinary approach is always a good one to have, along with other perspectives where more detail may be good, as well.


But, even the Einsteins and Edisons alluded to the fact that epiphany (illumination) comes from another realm. The realm of spirit. So you need the metaphysical as well, and it is by definition unconstrained by and outside of the scope of science, which studies the material realm, the material universe.

It's not either/or...one is outside or beyond all either/ors that we can posit.

Einstein said that science without religion is lame and religion without science is blind, and pretty much most of the giants of that era were hinting at a supernatural realm in some form or other, even God himself by any other name. In here, it's actually the other way around because few put Spirituality and anything else in the same post except perhaps in the Science and Spirituality thread. What happened to 'As Above, So Below?'

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

That's because the realm of consciousness is metaphysical, meaning, it is beyond even the origins of the material realm.
It has been called the "hard problem of consciousness" precisely because its origin and its very existence is beyond the scope of science, for all that they can and do measure various observable aspects at the secondary levels of origin. E.g., our physical energy signals (EEG readings and others) can be observed/measured and used to categorise our phase of sleep.

That's because the same thought patterns occur over and over again, not just in the science vs Spirituality arena but in so many other walks of Life. The same thing's happened in this thread, and with you. There's very little real understanding of what creates our consciousness yet it's held in such great store, when there's so little understanding of the actual process. People want to think there is conscious this, that and the next thing when science says it's not the case at all. There have been scientific terms bandied about that have been badly misunderstood yet expressed as Universal Laws.


But when does Spirituality become a mentality? What happened to 'All That Is' or are simply talking about 'All That Is' beyond the physical so let's just forget some of the fundamentals of Spirituality for.... what exactly?


Spirituality is not far. above and separate from the material world, and what you're talking about is a degree of separation, if not serious relativity in a Universe where everywhere IS. There is no 'up there. down there' as much as there is no time, no 'beyond'. It's only beyond because you define it as beyond.


Which is what Spirituality comprises of - secondary levels of origin if Spirituality itself is to be believed. It is a belief system after all, and if it was is clever it would be a science or a fact. The "hard problem of consciousness" is that people who have read Spiritual literature know more about consciousness than teams of well-educated and experienced researchers in a range of fields - including Spiritual people and philosophers. Sometimes agenda becomes truth, and there so many aspects of Spirituality go out of the window.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

IMO, you are getting at one or two of the aspects of the "hard problem" that is typically glossed over in much of the scientific literature (often by putting them in the "easy problem" category, LOL). And this has always struck me because they are such nontrivial things. They are things of great significance regarding the "hard problem".

One, we have these subconscious survival traits and also these core soul traits -- all coming from these different levels of consciousness which comprise each of us -- and all of which we know as experiential phenomenon of consciousness at various levels (including the body, the heart/self/Self, and our interbeing with others and all that is). That is, we feel and experience all these things, some momentarily and some long-term or more continously. Our holistic knowledge of ourselves is primitive so we simply call these things "survival traits" or "basic emotions" or "family traits", etc.

Regarding the "location" of these feelings and emotions, it is much the same as with memories. They cannot be found to be located anywhere in the brain (i.e., your specific heightened fear of drowning or your PTSD...or your soul's love of learning across many lifetimes...or whatever it may be) but rather are only transmitted to the receiver in certain areas of the transmitter (brain). Although we may mimic some physical responses in the lab through various manipulations by inducing these emotions through stimuli or putting folks through certain stresses, etc.

The thing is, these subconscious aspects at core of who we are, are protected...they are not easily discovered or engaged with. They are NOT located in or accessible to & manageable by the waking conscious mind by default. They are NOT readily accessible without great reflection, discipline, and conscious choices to engage in reflection and discipline. There is a veil of forgetfulness, an obstruction, one which must be gently but actively engaged and stepped through, in the realm of heart and spirit. And that is clearly by design...meaning, there has to be a level of awareness and ultimately of engaged, conscious choice present to come to know oneself more truly, madly, and deeply.

Another is that much of what scientists have called the "easy problems" of consciousness, involving how we retrieve memories and do mental processing, are not at all complete or accurate. They too allude to the hard problem all over again, even as the researchers dance around it. That is, there is no place in the brain where we can extract the unique individual memories, and play them back at will in the laboratory.

That's because consciousness is omnipresent, even our individuated piece that we call our own. Our brain is a receiver, translator, and processor focused for our individuated bit first, with all the rest coming second. It has certain designated areas of functionality...that's it. So consciousness will never be found in the brain...rather we will only refine the mapping and hopefully our ability to heal and repair it, as well.

What our consciousness is seems to be the 'hard problem' because science has yet to define it in any kind of accuracy never mind come to terms with how it does what it does. How we turn the inputs we have - sight, sound etc. into an experiential existence is still just as large a mystery. What is known is that so many things contribute to your consciousness, including your mental/emotional well-being and therefore will have an impact on how you perceive yourself. Many would say that much of what we call an experiential existence is nothing more than the brain going through it's normal processes.



Similarly the subconscious aspects of who we are that aren't really accessible, often the reason they're not accessible is because the mind 'protects' itself by compartmentalising memories and the like of trauma. Being honest I can't help but wonder if Spirituality is a compartmentalisation and protection tactic to some, by the way some subjects are often talked about. Regardless of what many Spiritual people might say, our normal, everyday and 'mundane' brain functions are as much 'responsible' for our Spirituality as anything else. And while consciousness itself can't be fond in the brain or anywhere else we have scientific access too, nonetheless your brain and how it works, your mind and how it works and everything else that's in your heart and your head all contribute to your consciousness.


The other interesting thing to come through recently is the work Penrose and Hameroff have been doing in the discovery that the brain is quantum-capable, which means it might well have access to the probability field that is the core energy of the Universe itself. That moves the goalposts into orbit. The issue that we have right now is that science has yet to catch up with so many areas - quantum theory included but there are more basic areas than that. We know much about neuroscience and psychology yet there are areas we really we don't have a clue about. It's the areas we don't have a clue about that are the ones that will probably hold most of the secrets.



And if we say we know who and what we are, we're just fooling ourselves.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

There is always an interplay between the consciousness of the body and mind and that of the heart, which is linked directly to our eternal consciousness. We can think of the heart as a multidimensional singularity, IMO. As a healer, I know this and have "seen" this very well, the interplay between different levels of consciousness. There is a truth in the body and in the heart that is far deeper and wiser than that the mind (intellect) knows. And IMO that is precisely due to their direct link to the reality of the metaphysical realms, to their alignment with source. Which the waking consciousness and intellect takes lifetimes to grasp, apparently

But I don't agree that the only experience of consciousness we have is only of the body or of the mind. Least of all, of just the mind, LOL. I know that is one school of scientific thought but like all these things, IMO you must take it with a grain of salt and enjoy any of the interesting research they've done for what it is. And no matter how you slice it, the body and the heart are inseparable, and as one's centre, the heart leads. So IMO we can't cut out the heart simply because it's inconvenient. And it really is at times, isn't it?

The heart has its own neural network and sends more information to the brain than vice versa, energetically it's far more than just a pump - every time it beats it sends out a pulse into the Universe. As carbon-based Life forms everyone in our vicinity has the capability to receive those pulses. As Pascal said; "The heart has reasons which reason knows not of."


The mind is concerned with object consciousness - objects being beliefs. knowledge and the like, anything that's processed by the brain and the electrical signals. That is the consciousness of form. Knowledge can also be egotistical because it's treasured. Space consciousness is a higher 'form' of consciousness in that it creates the space to allow other consciousness than your own to interplay and relate to your own. It comes from the same 'stable' as Gnosis and heart consciousness.


What we need is honesty with ourselves and what we express, because often humility is forgotten about and consciousness is certainly one are of Spirituality that we really need to address with a modicum of humility.

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

You raise some good points worth discussing further GS...I hope I've raised some good points as well Either way, we can certainly enjoy discussing them a bit further :)

And I do resonate with many of the theories and implications of quantum physics and quantum mechanics -- it will be even more interesting to see how some of these implications scale up to the classical level of matter in the material realm. You know, the level at which we all exist.

Peace & blessings
7L

You have raised some good points, 7L. What I always try and look for in subjects such as these is some kind of balance at least between science and Spirituality, between the Spiritual and the 'real world'. Otherwise it just become the one-eyed monster.

[davidsun]

Hi-Ho, 7L -

If it walks like a 'duck' and talks like a 'duck', its a 'duck'!

From the Cambridge dictionary: "To duck a subject or question is to avoid it."

Originally Posted by God-Like

Yes I agree, self enquiry is what can cut through the mustard lol, the carrot that dangles in such a way where you keep moving inch by inch towards it ..

There is a time where we are drawn within to understand and realise what we are and what we are is all about ..

There is the magic and beauty also in not knowing and having wonder is wonderfully creative and imaginative ..

Is it not enough to simply exist you ask ..

For those whose existence is full of suffering I would say not at a point where enough is enough .. ..


x daz x

Sometimes all we have to do is create the space and not fill it with anything else, nature abhors a vacuum so let it do it thing. We can fill our heads with 'I am this' and 'I an not that' but that keeps out the really good stuff. Never really liked mustard, horrible stuff.

We're all looking to be a part of something bigger than ourselves, often that bigger is the bigger selves within us but do we like what we see or do we cover that in mustard, and ketchup?

The magic and beauty is hard to find nowadays but if you know where to look it's still there. So we become Gods in amnesia because only humans can have the imagination and see the Universe through the wondrous eyes of a child, Spirit already knows and why take this particular Journey to know what is already known?

It is not for us to say at what point does enough become enough of suffering unless that suffering is our own. Others have made their choices the same as we have and for some, even though they might say enough is enough the suffering still continues. I have a couple of friends in the Philippines, one of whom had their home washed away in a typhoon when she was a child. Another lives near a river, idyllic in nice weather but terrifying when the raging water is a few feet from the front door.

If this is what concerns us deeply there's nothing coming over us. Perhaps the "To who/whom does" is becoming more lost. The answers are all around, G-L.