The Difference a Guru Makes...

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

Upon a closer look there is neither a ''West'' nor an ''East'', because the way these terms are being used in spiritual discourse is inherently flawed and stupid to begin with. It usually assumes some sort of American or British culture represents the entire ''Western world'' ((where to draw that line? Let me know..)), and yet it does not say anything about say, Iceland, Italy, Sweden, or take your pick. The same applies to the ''East'', which in spiritual discourse usually refers to Hinduism and Buddhism, but has little to nothing to say about Shinto or shaman beliefs in Siberia, or take your pick.

Indeed, terms such as East and West have little meaning apart from our arbitrary definitions (although Western is commonly used to include all of Europe, not just British culture).

And from where I am in New Zealand, most of the world comes under the heading of West, but again this is based on arbitrary lines of longitude.

And for me, "Eastern" philosophies would naturally include Taoism and Zen, which along with Yoga systems and Buddhism are the most well-known of these philosophies. Not many people outside Japan would be too familiar with Shinto.

So East and West are just convenient labels, but only if everyone subscribes to the same meaning.

Peace

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Some good stuff!

Thank you.

I am more surprised to see how ready and willing people are to submit their will to another who they don't even know...for fear of reprisal and punishment if they do NOT obey....they could always argue that they don't have any choice.

"Stand in this circle on the floor only"..."do not sit on the park bench"..."loiterers will be prosecuted"..."partying is a criminal offense" etc...watch out...here comes the "fun police".

Now, I am a proud civil libertarian...and all of this has been a crushing blow for me and others like me...we are usually the first "casualties of war" whenever "war" has been declared....then again, there is always a "war" against something or another...terror...drugs...illegal immigration..viruses..

I mean, if the government worries about public health and safety, why are cigarettes still being sold, which causes more respiratory illness than a virus could ever do? I don't understand that..but this isn't about any of it..

This is about people saying that those who follow Gurus are being "brainwashed" but those who obey the law without question are not? Why should we obey the law and not obey a Guru? Oh, I know... because the latter cannot take away your cash, possessions, material things and those things you are attached to and then finally take away your very freedom of movement itself by placing you in prison after a panel of your peers go "burn the witch".....I recalled yesterday how many times Mahatma Gandhi was imprisoned for non violent civil disobedience.....my hero.

Anyway, people will follow whomever or whatever is going to benefit THEM according to what matters most to THEM on an individual basis....whether it be following a set of rules and procedures so they don't lose everything they only believe they "own" (but don't) or following a spiritual teacher/Guru to relinquish any notion of "ownership" so that others cannot have any control over them and pull their strings THROUGH all those attachments...like an obedient puppet.

I taught my mother a very important lesson yesterday...and she learned it.

After Easter, over the next few days, I will be going to visit her to deliver a week's worth of cooked food and groceries to put in her refrigerator, wash her clothes and take her to get her blood pressure tested...it comes under the auspices of being a "compassionate visit".

Still, my mother is worried that I will be fined $1,000 for breaking kerfew...I told her that the Department of Revenue would not be fining me $1,000...only $250 and she couldn't work out how...well, it is simple. Last week, the Government gave me $750 as part of a "stimulus package"..next week, they fine me $1,000 for delinquency...so I am really only going to be out of pocket by $250, which is the true amount of that "fine" there...it is only a "money go round" leading people to only wrongly believe they are "getting" or "losing" ANY of it...because it doesn't exist in the first place...mum laughed for about five minutes when that non-existent penny finally dropped.

It is difficult for one who cannot be told what to do to confront the situation where my every movement I perform must be controlled like a puppet and the resistance I put up against it is great...it is eating me from the inside out because I cannot be told what to do no matter what or whose life may be at stake when there is no PROOF that it ever was or ever will be...thus, I am saving whatever money the government gives me and putting it into a "fine fund" so that I can pay for the privilege of walking alone, on the beach, keeping my 'social distance' from everyone...and even if I get thrown in jail for six months for enjoying nature, it will be worth every second of the time I got to do so... my family thinks I will be locked up in an insane asylum instead for still believing that I have a "free spirit" in light of all the oppression....nope, I just won't be told what to do and I am prepared to die over being controlled by anyone...and how many out there can get to say that? I believe they used to call us "freedom fighters":

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1VQ_3sBZEm0

Close enough...

@shivani devi.

Despite are many differences I agree with you .

[BlueElephant]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Many traditions describe that it is nearly impossible to realize the "truth" without the guidance, help and support of a true guru. I thought it might be helpful to describe how/what is the meaningful difference a guru makes to the realization process.

There are many ways in which it can be described, but in simple terms, "we" are beings of "light". The normal person has many fears, issues, attachments and ego stuff which "obscure" this truth. Rather than notice the energy/light that we are, we get caught up in the perceptions and mind activity of life. We believe that all of the mental activity and the boundaries of the body are "us". A true guru has seen through the obstructions, perceived the light and in doing so, the light "flows through" them.

When one is ready and "finds" a guru, an energetic bond is formed. Our subconscious (or higher) self yearns for the "light" and so "connects" to the guru, which becomes a "form" for the light in the world for us. To form this energetic connection requires a very open, trusting and loving heart. The more open and trusting, the further the guru can take you. With full surrender and trust (which is very rare), a guru can take you all the way to the brink. The final step you must take on your own, as the guru itself, ultimately becomes an "attachment" that which must also be surrendered (let go).



Once the bond is formed, it is like one is sort of "drafting" off the guru. The guru can share the light and clarity of mind. Also, the light of guru is constantly "hitting" the obstructions of the student. If the student trusts and let's go of the energetic mental obstructions, it is like the guru "washes them away" with light. Lifetimes of karma and obstructions can be cleared quickly.



Hope you found this interesting (and maybe helpful). Best wishes on you path.

This thread has a potential to uplift and straighten out many mis-conceptions about the topic.

Although there has been some dialectic going on, hopefully with some good outcome, I think mostly it turned into a mostly un-giving debate of prowess.

I think two or more threads should exist: One for people who understand the thread for what it is and have wonderful conversations with insight and wisdom and love and appreciation shared.

A second thread for people who do not really understand what it is like to have a True Guru and let them complain and bad talk the Guru Principal to each other.

And three: the ones who really do not know the topic, but have an open mind and seek to understand it - they go in the first thread.

For those here who have had one or more True Gurus in their lives - know what a treasure it is.... all positive with inconceivable enlightened outcomes.

I have been able to live with and study with and repeatedly visit over 20 Siddha (fully accomplished in spiritual Realization that their tradition offers) Gurus ( Loving Kind compassionate humble Spiritual Friends), in the 60's - 90's, then most of them passed away, and there are few taking their places.

I believe that it is only the Siddhas in Tibetan Buddhism that were know to the West, most others unknown - unless we think of Ananda Mayi Ma and a few others.

I live with one Siddha who was not know in the West at all (he was an avadhut) and yet thousands of people would come to see him, (when he was not in the jungle) in towns and cities he would occasionally go to.

I really hope that those who appreciate the Topic here will join in, but, of course, no one is banned. And the few here who love this topic as I do, will come back to it rejoicing.

In a way this Topic various responses represent some of the conflict, aggression and confusion in the World.

Okay, come at me - if you really want to - otherwise come those who love and appreciate the Topic.

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

This thread has a potential to uplift and straighten out many mis-conceptions about the topic.

Although there has been some dialectic going on, hopefully with some good outcome, I think mostly it turned into a mostly un-giving debate of prowess.

I think two or more threads should exist: One for people who understand the thread for what it is and have wonderful conversations with insight and wisdom and love and appreciation shared.

A second thread for people who do not really understand what it is like to have a True Guru and let them complain and bad talk the Guru Principal to each other.

And three: the ones who really do not know the topic, but have an open mind and seek to understand it - they go in the first thread.

For those here who have had one or more True Gurus in their lives - know what a treasure it is.... all positive with inconceivable enlightened outcomes.

I have been able to live with and study with and repeatedly visit over 20 Siddha (fully accomplished in spiritual Realization that their tradition offers) Gurus ( Loving Kind compassionate humble Spiritual Friends), in the 60's - 90's, then most of them passed away, and there are few taking their places.

I believe that it is only the Siddhas in Tibetan Buddhism that were know to the West, most others unknown - unless we think of Ananda Mayi Ma and a few others.

I live with one Siddha who was not know in the West at all (he was an avadhut) and yet thousands of people would come to see him, (when he was not in the jungle) in towns and cities he would occasionally go to.

I really hope that those who appreciate the Topic here will join in, but, of course, no one is banned. And the few here who love this topic as I do, will come back to it rejoicing.

In a way this Topic various responses represent some of the conflict, aggression and confusion in the World.

Okay, come at me - if you really want to - otherwise come those who love and appreciate the Topic.

Take note to all who see this that this is a classic example of a mature well developed articulate *deleted*.
Very smooth presentation to wear anybody that does disagree is clearly in the wrong because they were not rude or mean they were very informative yet you can see how they made it seemed as if it's almost Petty to not View the situation like them and how clearly if you don't believe in real gurus you just don't understand then you should go to your own Forum topic "but you're welcome here anyways"

*DELETED*

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by BlueElephant

This thread has a potential to uplift and
straighten out many mis-conceptions about the topic.

I think two or more threads should exist: One for people who understand the thread for
what it is and have wonderful conversations with insight and wisdom and love and appreciation shared.

A second thread for people who do not really understand what it is like to have a True Guru
and let them complain and bad talk the Guru Principal to each other.

*snip*

Hahahaha, in a perfect world, maybe.
"Complainers over there - open or knowledgeable people in this line''. LOL

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Hahahaha, in a perfect world, maybe.
"Complainers over there - open or knowledgeable people in this line''. LOL

Discretion is the better part of valor, I say. LOL!

I could cause all sorts of ruckus in most of the sub-forums I don't visit and many threads in the sub-forms I do frequent if I laid bare all of my opinions, however there's no real sense in doing that if there's no interest in the topic and no commonality of thought and just for the purpose of disagreeing. https://youtu.be/xpAvcGcEc0k

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Many traditions describe that it is nearly impossible to realize the "truth" without the guidance, help and support of a true guru. I thought it might be helpful to describe how/what is the meaningful difference a guru makes to the realization process.

From my perspective and experience here's how I see it. Some form of tradition with guidance and structure is necessary, else the possibility exists one will just be following a path dictated by one's own subconscious desires and aversions.

Whether that requires intimate interaction is really dependent on the individual. Some might be more confident, comfortable and able to study a tradition on one's own, some might need additional support such as online lectures while others might need more personal interaction.

I fall in the middle category and can do with independent study bolstered by lots of online lectures. Without the online lectures and from a teacher that resonates and I trust I'd be wandering around mostly in the dark, not making much progress.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I could cause all sorts of ruckus in most of the sub-forums ..... just for the purpose of disagreeing.

And I commend you for this and celebrate your maturity. See?

[BlueElephant]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Hahahaha, in a perfect world, maybe.
"Complainers over there - open or knowledgeable people in this line''. LOL

LOL, Yes, boo hoo - I will cry now then... kidding. Yes a perfect world. The bliss-filled world of the GURU - (not a person or persons by the way, and yes can be embodied in a person).

The Guru in form is what leeds to the perfect Guru within - which then becomes the perfect Guru outside. We are all part of the whole system of Life - the Guru.

The Guru cannot be seen by a limited mind-set. Maybe this is the obstruction... ?