The Difference a Guru Makes...

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

@Shivani Devi



>>>To avoid going around in even more circles (as we appear to already be doing), I am just going to address two points, as you don't wish to discuss anything more than those because, in your own words, you don't want to go over it for the "sake of production" which could also be considered as a "cop out" isn't it?<<<

not necessarily. my main motivation for ending the conversation is do to forum policy and seeing how the moderators have stepped in on a few Topic and shut them down because people were pointlessly bickering.


>>>I was watching a video by Sadhguru the other day... people were accusing him of "brainwashing" to wit and which he replied "if the brain is dirty, why not wash it?" and that hit home with me.<<<

I'm not going to acknowledge any quotes from sadhguru as part of a serious conversation because he is like the TD jakes of Hinduism.

>>>There are many things that others disagree with and they use language that is designed to be emotive and accusatory against the person or their practices...but when one considers it, they are merely projecting their own insecurities onto others<<<


did I not mention in one of my first posts to you not to take this personal? I'm assuming you're accusing me of using this accuser restyle language am I correct?


and although it can be common for somebody to project their own insecurities and issues on to others when talking about topics that are emotionally triggering
however this is not always the case but unfortunately a few psychiatrists mention this style of triggered Behavior and people took it and ran with it and now you will see in virtually any scenario where a person feels the need to deflect identity off of themselves in order to get a better footing in the discussion they will do so in this particular manner.

>>>"brainwashing" and "fundamentalism" even "selfishness"...there is nothing wrong with these concepts whatsoever if one uses the free will they have been given to consciously*choose*to have their brain "washed" from all the accumulated social media and societal indoctrinating crud...or to get back to basics and necessities about what it is they want out of life...or to spend more time with self-improvement, self-love and self-care.<<<

words only hold the meaning that we give them so I agree that there can be nothing wrong with certain words however

my point that you cannot seem to grasp an the main reason for me wanting to end the conversation is that you don't know what it's like to have your brain washed clean and you dont know what it's like to have a free mind because you have been fed every belief and are still in chains of someone else's opinion
and you cannot understand what actual freedom is until you actually become free.

>>>A lot of what I am reading from you is Ad Hominem content anyway and that also detracts from the topic at hand<<<

omg I specifically told you in the beginning not to take any of this personally and yet here you are still doing that very thing.

>>>for example, you believe that I am being a narcissist, deceitful, emotional, faulty, brainwashing...just look at all of those negative words you use! Maybe you should look within yourself to find out why you need to attack another who isn't harming anybody else and if you believe that my beliefs, practices etc are harming ME, maybe that's another thing you need to question yourself about, as your replies are saying more about you than what they are saying about me...see? I can do that too!<<<

I'm not attacking you but clearly you are to sensitive to have this conversation with so I am done after this post.

>>>Anyway, not everyone is going to agree with me, nor you, nor anyone else here..you disagree with me and I disagree with you... and so, the best thing we can do is simply "agree to disagree" and I am willing to do so....are you?<<<

that's an obvious yes on my part .


>>>Or do you simply classify that as another "cop out?" or I am "running away" by using my discretion and diplomacy to exit a situation which is benefiting neither of us in any way, shape or form?<<<

hopefully that got some of your frustration out, feel better now?.

>>>because, you know, I could always ask you "okay, so what do you WANT me to do, so that I can make myself more acceptable to YOU and not just "be myself" anymore?"<<<

thats the thing your not yourself your what you have been told to be and if I told you what I wanted you to do then I would be no better then all of the gurus that were the original target of this conversation in the 1st place before it became a wounded saint situation.



>>>However, for the past day or so, I have been watching some Satsangas by Mooji...I like Mooji.. probably not enough to join his society because I am looking for something slightly different than what Mooji has to offer, but I still have a lot of time for him and what he has to say....and his group just does the BEST bhajan recitals! <<<


I should of guessed that you would favor moojis blind cult group.

>>>I would rather be listening to that and dancing around in the SELF indulgence of mindless bliss after having my brain "washed" by the Grace of God than to continue with a discussion on here with another who needs to work on their de-programming skills.<<<

I completely believe you and so I will leave you to it. PS he likes his feet kissed and he favors the ladies ������

There is the basic point that both of us are failing to adhere to...why are we NOT?

If you don't want to continue this discussion, why are you thus still continuing it?

The same applies...if I prefer listening to devotional hymns and meditating over having what you refer to as an "unproductive conversation" then why am I not?

You could have easily chosen to end the discussion with your previous post, so as not to "break forum rules" yet you did not, did you?

Similarly, I could have realised my time is better served by being elsewhere and yet..here I am replying to you.

Intriguing, isn't it?

[Shivani Devi]

A lot can be said for keeping one's beliefs, opinions and spiritual practices to themselves.

Some may consider it to be a "cop out" but that is just their own personal opinion which may not apply on any individual basis...in as much as the opinions of others rarely do whenever one doesn't wish to provide any justification for the reasons why they choose to walk the path they do.

Some may also equate non justification with not taking any personal responsibility or ownership (being brainwashed)...again, just another subjective opinion.

The path each of us chooses to follow is meant to be traversed alone and even IN that realization, the guidance of a Guru or to follow some prescribed practice can also be indispensable....for some...for some.

It is thus our innate ability to "think for ourselves" which has led us to also follow the methods and teachings of another... especially when they correlate to or refine whatever we are "thinking for ourselves" in the first place.

All external appearances are illusory and nowhere is that more evident than in another who sits in judgment over any perceived "spiritual attainment" (or lack thereof) when they are not privy to another's direct experiences - believing they are "right" while the other is "wrong" when it comes to really knowing or understanding what it means to be "free"...to be a Jivanmukta.

Even after attainment of such realization, it still may take a while to fully detach from the demands of existence or to stop with all the philosophizing and to just centre themselves...rest within the space of heart/being and just say "I prefer not to discuss that anymore" then just let the chips fall where they may, as they recall the famous line from "A Few Good Men":
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk

When all is said and done, if it floats your boat, then just keep rowing. You are not answerable to anyone else save yourself and a Guru can also help you to realise that, if you haven't already done so.

Going back to the word "occult"...there is a reason why those practices are hidden and not readily shared... because it is human nature to fear and hate on what they don't understand and if they were willing to understand, it would be a different story...but unfortunately, many just don't understand by claiming that they already do..and then it becomes so easy to say "just go away and mind your own business and I shall mind mine" and yep, in certain spiritual paths, this is exactly what is meant to happen as we realise that many ask questions not because they are interested to know or to learn, but just so they can poke holes in the system through blatant ego assertion.

That is also why, all the best "Gurus" are the ones who will tell you to get lost...they don't want anything from you...they don't care if you go away or not..the ones who are offended will curse the Guru and leave, but the ones who can see through it...who are truly willing to learn will stay..sometimes sitting there for months or even years before the Guru decides to teach them.

Many just have no idea... none whatsoever.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by django

The following very insightful observations by John Heron give a good overview of the history and evolution of the guru phenomenon in the West and in popular consciousness.

There seem to be four phases in the guru phenomenon in the West.

In the late decades of the nineteenth century and early decades of the twentieth century, there was just a small guru-invasion from the East with key players like Vivekananda and the spread of the Vedanta movement in the West.

Then post-war from 1945 with the publication of Huxley's The Perennial Philosophy, there started a major guru-invasion from the East including the dramatic spread through the 60s and the 70s of Zen and Tibetan Buddhism in the USA and Europe.

In the third phase, over the last thirty years or so, alongside the guru-invasion from the East there has been the growing phenomenon of homegrown Western gurus and spiritual teachers claiming the special status of 'enlightenment'.

The fourth phase is just getting under way. It seems to be distinguished by four features.

- The erosion of guru status as a result of sexual and financial abuse and bullying scandals among both Eastern and homegrown Western gurus and spiritual teachers.

- The erosion of 'enlightenment' claims by the proliferation of the number of people, especially in the West, making the claim: the more people who make the claim, the more its narcissistic inflation stands revealed. For the 'enlightenment' claim is also an authority-claim to have followers, a recruiting drive; and the more claims that are made, the stronger the competition among claimants in the market-place for attention.

- A growing awareness that spiritual authority is within and that to project it outward onto teacher, tradition or text is an early, adolescent phase of spiritual development in the one projecting, and counter-spiritual manipulative abuse in any guru/teacher who seeks to elicit, to appropriate and to sustain the projection.

- The emergence of peer to peer spirituality, which democratizes charismatic, enlightened leadership, and realizes that it is a role which different persons assume at different times, either in the initiation of a peer group or in the continuous unfolding of its process.

"Four phases of the guru phenomenon in the West" John Heron dated April 2, 2005
reprinted in P/I: Pluralities/Integration no.65: April 20, 2005

Very insightful indeed.

I would add that this fascination with Eastern (Indian) spirituality has determined the focus and language of modern spirituality, to the point it is now (almost) impossible to have a discussion about spirituality without its assumptions often being the unexplained and unjustified foundation behind a discussed topic.

And it (Eastern/Indian spirituality) has filled a niche that (a minority of) people were looking for after a decline in religiosity in developed nations. Ironically, many people turned away from religion due to its authoritarianism and conservatism, only for some to return back to such when joining a guru tradition, but this is not as demonstrable and obvious at first sight. In the current zeitgeist it has more marketing potential than what came before. In the future we'll have something else again and who knows what that will be...

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

I see your quote refers to the idea that even the true guru is also an attachment. Can you imagine a point in time where you might let go of attachment to your guru?

What is the brink that your guru takes you to? What is beyond the brink?

There are two actually

The first one is helping one realize emptiness of self. At this point it is realizing universal mind to a degree that one is able to do what is described in the OP. Classically it is what happens when one opens and then unifies the 7 chakras.

They realize the light or in Buddhism they have realized that Void=Form. The first part of the Heart Sutra.

Even at this point it is the person that has to let go of the sense of self. The guru can pull someone along, can support someone, can give them a taste of realizing the light while working with the guru but it is you, that has to let go to fully realize it all the time.

To me, this isn't the end but just another beginning but one much deeper, powerful and swifter.

The attachment referred to in the OP is no different than the attachment to the ego self. All such attachments are based in the ego mind. A realized guru can take you to the brink of moving beyond the ego, can even give you a taste of non duality.. but again it is you that has to let go.

Like Jesus said..

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

A guru, a guide.. a friend that helps one to realize the light..

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

A lot can be said for keeping one's beliefs, opinions and spiritual practices to themselves.

Some may consider it to be a "cop out" but that is just their own personal opinion which may not apply on any individual basis...in as much as the opinions of others rarely do whenever one doesn't wish to provide any justification for the reasons why they choose to walk the path they do.

Some may also equate non justification with not taking any personal responsibility or ownership (being brainwashed)...again, just another subjective opinion.

The path each of us chooses to follow is meant to be traversed alone and even IN that realization, the guidance of a Guru or to follow some prescribed practice can also be indispensable....for some...for some.

It is thus our innate ability to "think for ourselves" which has led us to also follow the methods and teachings of another... especially when they correlate to or refine whatever we are "thinking for ourselves" in the first place.

All external appearances are illusory and nowhere is that more evident than in another who sits in judgment over any perceived "spiritual attainment" (or lack thereof) when they are not privy to another's direct experiences - believing they are "right" while the other is "wrong" when it comes to really knowing or understanding what it means to be "free"...to be a Jivanmukta.

Even after attainment of such realization, it still may take a while to fully detach from the demands of existence or to stop with all the philosophizing and to just centre themselves...rest within the space of heart/being and just say "I prefer not to discuss that anymore" then just let the chips fall where they may, as they recall the famous line from "A Few Good Men":
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk

When all is said and done, if it floats your boat, then just keep rowing. You are not answerable to anyone else save yourself and a Guru can also help you to realise that, if you haven't already done so.

Going back to the word "occult"...there is a reason why those practices are hidden and not readily shared... because it is human nature to fear and hate on what they don't understand and if they were willing to understand, it would be a different story...but unfortunately, many just don't understand by claiming that they already do..and then it becomes so easy to say "just go away and mind your own business and I shall mind mine" and yep, in certain spiritual paths, this is exactly what is meant to happen as we realise that many ask questions not because they are interested to know or to learn, but just so they can poke holes in the system through blatant ego assertion.

That is also why, all the best "Gurus" are the ones who will tell you to get lost...they don't want anything from you...they don't care if you go away or not..the ones who are offended will curse the Guru and leave, but the ones who can see through it...who are truly willing to learn will stay..sometimes sitting there for months or even years before the Guru decides to teach them.

Many just have no idea... none whatsoever.

Some good stuff!

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

I would add that this fascination with Eastern (Indian) spirituality has determined the focus and language of modern spirituality, to the point it is now (almost) impossible to have a discussion about spirituality without its assumptions often being the unexplained and unjustified foundation behind a discussed topic.

And it (Eastern/Indian spirituality) has filled a niche that (a minority of) people were looking for after a decline in religiosity in developed nations. Ironically, many people turned away from religion due to its authoritarianism and conservatism, only for some to return back to such when joining a guru tradition, but this is not as demonstrable and obvious at first sight. In the current zeitgeist it has more marketing potential than what came before. In the future we'll have something else again and who knows what that will be...

It is always possible that there are many people now incarnate in Western bodies who have deep connections with Eastern spirituality from previous incarnations. They find that Eastern philosophy answers many questions which conventional religion does not.

As you say, who knows where this will lead?

Peace

[django]

Originally Posted by Altair

Very insightful indeed.

I would add that this fascination with Eastern (Indian) spirituality has determined the focus and language of modern spirituality, to the point it is now (almost) impossible to have a discussion about spirituality without its assumptions often being the unexplained and unjustified foundation behind a discussed topic.

And it (Eastern/Indian spirituality) has filled a niche that (a minority of) people were looking for after a decline in religiosity in developed nations. Ironically, many people turned away from religion due to its authoritarianism and conservatism, only for some to return back to such when joining a guru tradition, but this is not as demonstrable and obvious at first sight. In the current zeitgeist it has more marketing potential than what came before. In the future we'll have something else again and who knows what that will be...

I couldn’t agree with you more

As much as is possible I’ve thrown out the pre-packaged answers, and that is an ongoing process, in favour of a Jungian style self-exploration, which is deeply satisfying to my inner self.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by iamthat

It is always possible that there are many people now incarnate in Western bodies who have deep connections with Eastern spirituality from previous incarnations. They find that Eastern philosophy answers many questions which conventional religion does not.

“Western bodies”

What a bizarre expression...

Originally Posted by iamthat

As you say, who knows where this will lead?

Nope, you take what I said out of context.
If history shows us something it is that religious beliefs change, no exceptions.

Originally Posted by django

I couldn’t agree with you more

As much as is possible I’ve thrown out the pre-packaged answers, and that is an ongoing process, in favour of a Jungian style self-exploration, which is deeply satisfying to my inner self.

Yes, same here.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

“Western bodies”

What a bizarre expression...

Nothing bizarre about it.

You refer to the fascination with Eastern (Indian) spirituality, presumably referring to those born outside such Eastern cultures who then embrace these Eastern philosophies. For whatever reason, this fascination seems most apparent in those born in Europe or North America (or us here in the Antipodes). Western bodies is a convenient way to refer to such people born outside Eastern cultures. I am not the first to use this term in this way. We may nit-pick over what is East and what is West, but there is an established common usage of these terms.

There are countless people born into non-Eastern cultures in non-Asian bodies who are drawn to such Asian philosophies because they feel a natural connection, very possibly because of previous incarnations. The result is that ideas which were once alien to the Western world are now more widely accepted. For example, there are now health professionals advocating meditation and mindfulness for personal well-being, which was unimaginable back in the 1970s when I first began to meditate.

Peace

[Altair]

Originally Posted by iamthat

Nothing bizarre about it.

I have never heard of the expression before, referring to an entire group of people as ''bodies''.

You talk about ''Western bodies'' as opposed to ''people of Eastern cultures''.

This is subtle, and yet it describes the willingness to acknowledge multiplicity or not.

We may nit-pick over what is East and what is West, but there is an established common usage of these terms.

Upon a closer look there is neither a ''West'' nor an ''East'', because the way these terms are being used in spiritual discourse is inherently flawed and stupid to begin with. It usually assumes some sort of American or British culture represents the entire ''Western world'' ((where to draw that line? Let me know..)), and yet it does not say anything about say, Iceland, Italy, Sweden, or take your pick. The same applies to the ''East'', which in spiritual discourse usually refers to Hinduism and Buddhism, but has little to nothing to say about Shinto or shaman beliefs in Siberia, or take your pick.

When using such loaded, grand terms as 'West' and 'East' it might be helpful, for all of us, to explain what we mean by them. It can offer insight to others, and ourselves, in where we put our emphasis. I don't know what you refer to because I feel it rests on a stereotype.

Meditation for example I would not classify as ''eastern'', since many people have done it all over the world. Maybe not always in a formal setting, true. Eastern traditions however have marketed it better, and the popularity and rise in travelling guru's, as described in Django's post, is one explanation. :)

For example, there are now health professionals advocating meditation and mindfulness for personal well-being, which was unimaginable back in the 1970s when I first began to meditate.Peace

Yup. I think that's great.