The Difference a Guru Makes...

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

but I want to die BEFORE I die!....working on it.

Edit:Oh,you mean reintegrating the dark side to be the backside driver.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Elabr8Aspie

Edit:Oh,you mean reintegrating the dark side to be the backside driver.

"To be, or not to be, that is the question”

BY WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE

(from Hamlet, spoken by Hamlet)

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. To die—to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep, perchance to dream—ay, there's the rub:
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause—there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th'oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of dispriz'd love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th'unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovere'd country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action.

Suffice to say, I topped the state in English and English Lit from the time I was 10 until the time I was 16...I was the best student my English teachers never had...oh the irony.

[muffin]

Good afternoon Shivani Devi

Hope your keeping well

Novel way of answering

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

The bottom line being, of course, I don't want to BE connected to everyone else! I want everyone to be kept separate thank you very much...and while most strive for Enlightenment to realise the unity of all things, I strive for Enlightenment to realise the diversity and total separation of all things and thus cannot be affected by the connection in any way whatsoever...that usually happens as a matter of course when we (the body) dies...but I want to die BEFORE I die!....working on it.

Interesting but it is a dichotomy, a rock and a hard place because you say you want the diversity, but also to die before you die. In dying we may, or may not, have that diversity. I understand what you mean by dying before you die as being there while you are still here with a human body. It is my opinion that there is no way that we can disconnect from our source, our one-ness.

That death gives us a certain clarity which we can see the one-ness in the diversity. They are one and the same. If we don't see the divinity in all things, then in my opinion, we may have a fractured view of life. It is one thing to view the divine diversity and another to view the differences as being separate.

Its' a lot more than just group pressure, it is also group-think. The thing I never understood, and still don't, is that as kids I was told that I did not have to follow the crowd but as adults all I hear, on T.V. and elsewhere, is that "everybody is doing it and you don't want to get left out." Seems like a mixed message to me.

That which is formless, as well as the majority, or collective consciousness, determines the dominant creation, but there are lots of layers and each individual has their own perspective, which in my opinion is much better than group-think. Nonetheless, whether a person follows a particular religion, a guru, spiritual path, or none of those, in my opinion they will eventually come to the same conclusion, which may be no conclusion at all; as it is beyond thoughts and words.

I am experiencing that death and it is unlike physical death; it is more transformational, and those who do not die to this world while they are alive in it, most likely will go through both the transformation of consciousness, as well as the shedding of the physical body. The transformation now saves us a step later. That in us which dies is always that which is temporary in us, but that temporary-ness serves a valuable purpose.

Hang-in There My Friend.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Starman

Interesting but it is a dichotomy, a rock and a hard place because you say you want the diversity, but also to die before you die. In dying we may, or may not, have that diversity. I understand what you mean by dying before you die as being there while you are still here with a human body.

That death gives us a certain clarity which we can see the one-ness in the diversity. They are one and the same. If we don't see the divinity in all things, then in my opinion, we may have a fractured view of life. It is one thing to view the diversity and another to view the differences as being separate.

Its' a lot more than just group pressure, it is also group-think. The thing I never understood, and still don't, is that as kids I was told that I did not have to follow the crowd but as adults all I hear, on T.V. and elsewhere, is that "everybody is doing it and you don't want to get left out." Seems like a mixed message to me.

That which is formless, as well as the majority, or collective consciousness, determines the dominant creation, but there are lots of layers and each individual has their own perspective, which in my opinion is much better than group-think. Nonetheless, whether a person follows a particular religion, a guru, spiritual path, or none of those, in my opinion they will eventually come to the same conclusion, which may be no conclusion at all; as it is beyond thoughts and words.

I am experiencing that death and it is unlike physical death; it is more transformational, and those who do not die to this world while they are alive in it, most likely will go through both the transformation of consciousness, as well as the shedding of the physical body. The transformation now saves us a step later.

Hang-in There My Friend.

That would all be well and good if we could perceive the essence of Divinity being expressed through the actions of mankind AS a collective which then become applicable to all in the name of such Divinity.

Is the Divine being expressed in a terrorist? A murderer? In one (or a group of) selfish individuals who act through their ego and thus spoil it for others they care not about?

I also understand it such, as Donne has stated:

No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man
is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine;
if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe
is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as
well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine
owne were; any mans death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankinde;
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

Yet, what if "man" ceases to be "man" canst therefore become an island unto itself?

I am hanging in there...and I'm fine..thanks for your concern and friendship.

Thank you, Muffin...I am doing well despite this bout of existential angst I seek to rid myself of.

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

That would all be well and good if we could perceive the actions of Divinity being expressed through the actions of mankind AS a collective which then become applicable to all in the name of such Divinity.

Is the Divine being expressed in a terrorist? A murderer? In one (or a group of) selfish individuals who act through their ego and thus spoil it for others they care not about?

I understand as Donne has stated:

No man is an Iland, intire of itselfe; every man
is a peece of the Continent, a part of the maine;
if a Clod bee washed away by the Sea, Europe
is the lesse, as well as if a Promontorie were, as
well as if a Manor of thy friends or of thine
owne were; any mans death diminishes me,
because I am involved in Mankinde;
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

Yet, what if "man" ceases to be "man" canst therefore become an island unto itself?

Thank you, Muffin...I am doing well despite this bout of existential angst I seek to rid myself of.

You may have heard the story of the guy who came to a river and there was a scorpion there who asked the guy to carry him across the river. So he picked up the scorpion in his hand and carried him across the river. When they got to the other side the scorpion stung the guy, and the guy said why did you do that, and the scorpion replied "I am a scorpion, it is my nature to sting people."

Some human beings are scorpions. Humans think they are so civilized, and most think humanity is the "crown of creation," but my perspective differs; there is a Bible verse, "what you do to the least of them you also do to me." Humanity only recently, about 6-centuries ago, has come out of what we called "the dark ages." Evidently, we humans take a very long time to wake up to our deeper nature.

A person who does not see the divinity is blind, still that person is my brother or sister. I can intimately relate to being spiritually blind and absolutely acting in and unconscious way. Not that I am so enlightened today, but there are things in my past that I think about and cringe. I have not always viewed that divinity myself. For such a long time I had very little impulse control. Tai Chi and meditation helped me with that; my external guru also helped.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Starman

You may have heard the story of the guy who came to a river and there was a scorpion there who asked the guy to carry him across the river. So he picked up the scorpion in his hand and carried him across the river. When they got to the other side the scorpion stung the guy, and the guy said why did you do that, and the scorpion replied "I am a scorpion, it is my nature to sting people."

Some human beings are scorpions. Humans think they are so civilized, and most think humanity is the "crown of creation," but my perspective differs; there is a Bible verse, "what you do to the least of them you also do to me." Humanity only recently, about 6-centuries ago, has come out of what we called "the dark ages." Evidently, we humans take a very long time to wake up to our deeper nature.

A person who does not see the divinity is blind, still that person is my brother or sister. I can intimately relate to being spiritually blind and absolutely acting in and unconscious way. Not that I am so enlightened today, but there are things in my past that I think about and cringe. I have not always viewed that divinity myself. For such a long time I had very little impulse control. Tai Chi and meditation helped me with that; my external guru also helped.

I have not heard that story before, but thank you for sharing it with me.

Yes, indubitably. Meditation is the requirement for all the ills of society, including myself which takes to task such ills...and because I seem to be on a roll here:

Desiderata

GO PLACIDLY amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in solitude. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

By Max Ehrmann © 1927

Fatigue and loneliness...yep.

That being said..six centuries ago was the "Dark Ages" for Western Society, but it was also a Golden Age for those of South East Asia....my mind still boggles regarding the feats of mankind during that time to build such amazing collosus like Angkor... technology which cannot even be reproduced today with all of our modern equipment...we like to believe we are civilized NOW....try making a granite bowl on a lathe like the ancient Egyptians did, using no more than copper and bronze tools....but I could write another essay on that as well.

You are correct when you say that none of this can really be spoken about...and why that guy just didn't leave the scorpion on the other side of the river I have no idea either..."yeah, you are a scorpion....your job is to sting people and I don't want to be stung, so what do?"

Anyway, I also would love to have the guidance of a guru right about now, because my "inner Guru" is going "forget everyone ELSE and just work on yourself" hard to forget everyone else if we are all meant to be connected, what?

[Starman]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I have not heard that story before, but thank you for sharing it with me.

Yes, indubitably. Meditation is the requirement for all the ills of society, including myself which takes to task such ills...and because I seem to be on a roll here:

Desiderata

GO PLACIDLY amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in solitude. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be. And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

By Max Ehrmann © 1927

Fatigue and loneliness...yep.

That being said..six centuries ago was the "Dark Ages" for Western Society, but it was also a Golden Age for those of South East Asia....my mind still boggles regarding the feats of mankind during that time to build such amazing collosus like Angkor... technology which cannot even be reproduced today with all of our modern equipment...we like to believe we are civilized NOW....try making a granite bowl on a lathe like the ancient Egyptians did, using no more than copper and bronze tools....but I could write another essay on that as well.

You are correct when you say that none of this can really be spoken about...and why that guy just didn't leave the scorpion on the other side of the river I have no idea either..."yeah, you are a scorpion....your job is to sting people and I don't want to be stung, so what do?"

Anyway, I also would love to have the guidance of a guru right about now, because my "inner Guru" is going "forget everyone ELSE and just work on yourself" hard to forget everyone else if we are all meant to be connected, what?

I love the Desiderata. You crack me up with your comment about why did'nt the guy just leave the scorpion alone on the other side. But you did not say, how can a scorpion talk to a human being. Its' just a story that lots of gurus tell their students, that's how I heard it.

I'm in California and its about 11:30 P.M. here so I'm going to turn in. I am told a warm glass of milk will help a person sleep, not that I need any help getting to sleep. Take it a day at a time, that is all any of us can do, and if that does not work, take it a breath at a time. Peace to you.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by django

Seeing random skilled teachers as gurus is just wrong, maybe you just have a need to admire someone you perceive to be your superior? Imagine every teacher believing they’re a guru! What a mad world that would be.

I would agree :)

But the the guru described in the OP there is no pretending.

Everyone is talking about some other type. Someone who just say's he is a guru.

As a matter of fact the type of guru I have described doesn't ever say he is a guru and demands or wants nothing from you.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Altair

I have practised taekwondo and I would say no. A martial arts teacher, from my experience, does not pretend to have all the answers, not even about the martial arts in question (at least the practical application of it). They are only as good as their genetics and age allows them to be...

Guru's are a different cattle, especially in the context of a religious society. They may be presented as ''Gods in the flesh'', ''holy men'' and all the baggage that comes along with it (power distance, de-personalization of devotees, possibly unquestionable demands for worship and loyalty).

The martial arts teacher isn't presenting himself in that kind of way, in fact it's easy to see that he can't, as his achievements can be measured. We can see the degree of skill and have developed means to measure and compare. A martial arts teacher can't pretend to be something he is not, and get away with that for too long, because his skill is to be demonstrated and proven to the students.

A guru doesn't have to, because the respect he receives depends on the devotee, and if another devotee doesn't achieve anything he can wave it away with ''karma'', ''ego'' etc. and re-establish the hierarchy in that way ((through beliefs)). Much of the power dynamic depends on the gaps that followers/devotees fill in! Here's a very good read, imo, on just that: https://metamoderna.org/why-spiritua...turnintocults/

No matter how skilled you are or how young. Most of the battle is in the mind.

A real guru can't pretend either. Everyone keeps talking about someone like Spira or Tolle that can pretend to be teachers or guru's.

What I have described is very different.