Primordial State

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

In other words, you offer to give us this experience, and if we don't have it or get it, our hearts are closed.....we are not open...

Sounds like a set up lol.

It's win/win for you and lose/lose for us the way you have defined it. If we get the experience, you are a great teacher and have this special power....we are less than you.... if we don't have it, it proves our hearts are closed, we are flawed and lower than you.... either way you come out golden and we get shamed.... nice bit of a mind game there!

So yea not playing.

If you have something of value that others want, they will come to you, they will find you, you will not have to advertise.

No Ryan your heart is open already or I wouldn't offer it to you. It is common sense to also understand that even with an open heart. If you are not open to experiencing it and are firmly of the mindset it is not possible you probably won't. If you come with an open mind and open to the experience you will.. No mind games just commonsense.

Nobody is talking about anyone being higher or lower than anyone else.. It is about bodhichitta and helping others. Any talk about being higher or lower is your issues, your insecurities..

Also I wasn't talking about myself.. There are others I know who can do this...

The question was is it real? Shaktipat has been around for thousands of years. Dzogchen for thousands of years.. If the experience wasn't real the traditions wouldn't last...

I was offering you an experience to go beyond your beliefs and concepts...

So the real question is.. Can you move beyond your insecurities of a higher or lower to see if these things you don't believe in are true?

Are you not the one that tells everyone to get past such mental concepts and beliefs? Put that belief to the test then :)

[sky]

There are no dark corners of ignorance, no cobwebs of mystery, no smoky chambers of secrecy; there are no "secret doctrines," no hidden dogmas in the teaching of the Buddha, which is open as daylight and as clear as crystal. "The doctrine and discipline proclaimed by the Buddha shine when open and not when covered, even as the sun and moon shine when open and not when covered" (A.I,283).

The Master disapproved of those who professed to have "secret doctrines," saying, "Secrecy is the hallmark of false doctrines." Addressing the disciple Ânanda, the Master said: "I have taught the Dhamma, Ânanda, without making any distinction between exoteric and esoteric doctrine; for in respect of the truths, Ânanda, the Tathâgata has no such thing as the closed fist of a teacher who hides some essential knowledge from the pupil."n35


I don't believe that the Buddha would tell lies, do you ?

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

There are no dark corners of ignorance, no cobwebs of mystery, no smoky chambers of secrecy; there are no "secret doctrines," no hidden dogmas in the teaching of the Buddha, which is open as daylight and as clear as crystal. "The doctrine and discipline proclaimed by the Buddha shine when open and not when covered, even as the sun and moon shine when open and not when covered" (A.I,283).

The Master disapproved of those who professed to have "secret doctrines," saying, "Secrecy is the hallmark of false doctrines." Addressing the disciple Ânanda, the Master said: "I have taught the Dhamma, Ânanda, without making any distinction between exoteric and esoteric doctrine; for in respect of the truths, Ânanda, the Tathâgata has no such thing as the closed fist of a teacher who hides some essential knowledge from the pupil."n35


I don't believe that the Buddha would tell lies, do you ?

No it is just your lack of understanding..

The Flower Sermon is a story of the origin of Zen Buddhism in which Śākyamuni Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) transmits direct prajñā (wisdom) to the disciple Mahākāśyapa.

In the story, Śākyamuni gives a wordless sermon to his disciples (sangha) by holding up a white flower. No one in the audience understands the Flower Sermon except Mahākāśyapa, who smiles. Within Zen, the Flower Sermon communicates the ineffable nature of tathātā (suchness) and Mahākāśyapa's smile signifies the direct transmission of wisdom without words. Śākyamuni affirmed this by saying:


I possess the true Dharma eye, the marvelous mind of Nirvana, the true form of the formless, the subtle [D]harma [G]ate that does not rest on words or letters but is a special transmission outside of the scriptures. This I entrust to Mahākāśyapa.[1]

...It is said that when the Buddha saw Mahakasyapa smile, he told the crowd that since he, the Buddha, possessed the true and marvelous mind of Nirvana, the Dharma eye, and the form of the formless, a subtle Dharma Gate that needs no forms or language but is a special energy transmission, he was now entrusting it to Mahakasyapa. Since the Buddha was getting on in years, Mahakasyapa became his successor from that day forward.

I am sure Sky, like myself there are many teachings of the Buddha neither are aware of...

It is not a secret.. it is there for everyone to experience if you are open to it :)

[jonesboy]

Are you familiar with empowerments within every tradition of Buddhism?

Empowerment (Skt. abhiṣeka or abhiṣiñca; Tib. དབང་, wang; Wyl. dbang) is the initiation that transmits or awakens primordial wisdom (Tib. ཡེ་ཤེས་, yeshe), the power or realization in the mind of the disciple.

Empowerment is to ripen or mature our buddha nature.

Even though all beings possess the buddha nature, without receiving empowerment it is not possible to receive blessings and accomplishments through a particular practice, just as it will never be possible to get oil by pressing sand.


His Holiness the Dalai Lama says:

"When an empowerment is conferred on you, it is the nature of your mind—the buddha nature—that provides a basis upon which the empowerment can ripen you.
Through the empowerment, you are empowered into the essence of the buddhas of the five families.

In particular, you are ‘ripened’ within that particular family through which it is your personal predisposition to attain buddhahood."

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

So the real question is.. Can you move beyond your insecurities of a higher or lower to see if these things you don't believe in are true?

Bear: "Step right up.... just 2 dollars.....you there sir.... do you want to move beyond your insecurities of higher and lower and experience the unbelievable? Step right up sir... don't be shy...just two dollars today only!"

Rabbit: "I'm insecure? Why you calling me names Bear?"

Bear: "I'm not! I'm trying to help you!"

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Bear: "Step right up.... just 2 dollars.....you there sir.... do you want to move beyond your insecurities of higher and lower and experience the unbelievable? Step right up sir... don't be shy...just two dollars today only!"

Rabbit: "I'm insecure? Why you calling me names Bear?"

Bear: "I'm not! I'm trying to help you!"

So that is a no

Just remember I never mentioned higher or lower.. You did.. that is your thinking.. not mine... I would encourage you to look into why you feel that way. Why help makes you think of one being superior and one not...

Maybe go to your local Zen temple and experience it there or talk to them since you are so into Zen

[sky]

Despite the fame and importance of the story, it is not attested in any Indic scripture, and is a Chinese Chan invention. It’s first appearance is apparently in the compilation of koans, the*無門關*(Wúménguān, often rendered in English as The Gateless Gate), compiled by the Chinese Zen master Wumen Hui-k’ai (無門慧開) and first published in 1228. The development of the notion of lineages is discussed by*Dumoulin.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by sky123

Despite the fame and importance of the story, it is not attested in any Indic scripture, and is a Chinese Chan invention. It’s first appearance is apparently in the compilation of koans, the*無門關*(Wúménguān, often rendered in English as The Gateless Gate), compiled by the Chinese Zen master Wumen Hui-k’ai (無門慧開) and first published in 1228. The development of the notion of lineages is discussed by*Dumoulin.

Yet it is the experience of Zen and Dzogchen and Kashmir Shiavism and many, many traditions..

We could go back and forth all day long. I can say it is real you can say it is not. The only way to know is to experience it.

Just like the energy one feels in Qigong.. many say that is not possible.. then they experience it

Do you mind providing a link to that?

[Jeremy Bong]

Jonesboy,

Your flower story is it a process of transmission or telepathy? There's no sign of transmission in the story.

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Just remember I never mentioned higher or lower.. You did.. that is your thinking.. not mine...

So if I can't have your experience I am on the same level as you spiritually speaking? Just as advanced? Just as aware? Just as enlightened? Just as experienced? No levels huh.... no higher or lower? We are the same?

Then how bout I give you an experience,.... well if you are open to it.... you have to be open and not have a closed heart!