Yale Scientist abanding Darwin's Evolution

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

There are gaps that haven't been explained as yet - there are also quite a few anomalies that can't be explained so evolution is not the only answer in town. As I've said before, Caucasoids and with blond hair and blue eyes are anomalies that aren't explained by evolution - they shouldn't have happened according to evolution.

How so? You see 'gaps' and ''anomalies'' in blond hair and blue eyes. Blue eyes and 'odd' colours also exists in other species. There's no reason to suggest these things cannot be explained through natural selection. What makes you think they can't be explained?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#..._of_blond_hair

There's a lot of ''oddities'' [our judgement] in nature. There are birds that make the strangest sounds, mother spiders that let themselves be eaten by their young, and birds that are brood parasites. Why does variety in homo sapiens demand special attention and why can it suddenly not be explained through natural selection?

Originally Posted by Greenslade

You need a protein-based system to create proteins for even the most basic of life forms, something that couldn't have happened from evolving out of a pool of sludge.

I never went into the origins of life itself in this thread, just that life changes, and that these processes can be explained through natural selection. I don't see an issue with spirituality in general, only with mankind's projections upon the universe [meaning, purpose, planning, intelligence, two eyes and ears, symmetry, and so much else] which leads to all sorts of trouble and belief systems.

And [to my knowledge] there is no science that shows consciousness predates matter.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Our ancestors had a global system of symbols at the same time they were painting cave walls, they hadn't evolved the ability to even know the symbols existed in the first place. The symbols were thousands of years before their time. I didn't say all civilisations happened globally at the same time, I said that they had those symbols globally at the same time. They had a form of writing tens of thousands of years before their brains were capable of processing writing. Cave-dwellers are not known for having symbols.

Symbols are similar because people across the world tend to deal with similar issues and make similar observations, be it observing the moon, the sun, painting large herbivores and carnivores, etc. We can also see variety and differences in symbols and language, so while there are similarities, at the same time we can spot enough differences to know people in the Americas didn't grab a telephone or plane to meet those in China or Mesopotamia. If there really was some sort of ''global civilization'' then the similarities would be extremely obvious, like today, where we have phones, televisions, cars on every continent. But the native Americans didn't even have the wheel or writing. One would think that if they actually had ''contact'' with the other side of the pond they'd adopt such conveniences because it eases many processes in a civilization.

The similarities that we do see can be explained through general observable phenomena; people observing the skies, developing religious systems, growing crops, etc. Of course we'll have similarities in symbols and stories. None of this necessitates a global civilization where they all knew one another.

Originally Posted by Altair

How so? You see 'gaps' and ''anomalies'' in blond hair and blue eyes. Blue eyes and 'odd' colours also exists in other species. There's no reason to suggest these things cannot be explained through natural selection. What makes you think they can't be explained?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#..._of_blond_hair

There's a lot of ''oddities'' [our judgement] in nature. There are birds that make the strangest sounds, mother spiders that let themselves be eaten by their young, and birds that are brood parasites. Why does variety in homo sapiens demand special attention and why can it suddenly not be explained through natural selection?

No I don't see the anomalies and gaps, I've watch Youtubes from people who have done the studies - not alien conspiracy theorists but actual scientists and the like. The Caucasiod race itself is a genetic anomaly that science says couldn't possibly have evolved - but here I am anyway. Oddities are one thing, the unexplainable is something else - as is what is contradictory to evolution.

Originally Posted by Altair

I never went into the origins of life itself in this thread, just that life changes, and that these processes can be explained through natural selection. I don't see an issue with spirituality in general, only with mankind's projections upon the universe [meaning, purpose, planning, intelligence, two eyes and ears, symmetry, and so much else] which leads to all sorts of trouble and belief systems.

And [to my knowledge] there is no science that shows consciousness predates matter.

Then I guess you know better than the scientists who are doing this for a living. Science is not a belief system and they have the scientific evidence, where all you have is your opinion.



The evidence of consciousness existing before matter is in quantum theory, unless you're going to debunk that too?

Originally Posted by Altair

Symbols are similar because people across the world tend to deal with similar issues and make similar observations, be it observing the moon, the sun, painting large herbivores and carnivores, etc. We can also see variety and differences in symbols and language, so while there are similarities, at the same time we can spot enough differences to know people in the Americas didn't grab a telephone or plane to meet those in China or Mesopotamia. If there really was some sort of ''global civilization'' then the similarities would be extremely obvious, like today, where we have phones, televisions, cars on every continent. But the native Americans didn't even have the wheel or writing. One would think that if they actually had ''contact'' with the other side of the pond they'd adopt such conveniences because it eases many processes in a civilization.

The similarities that we do see can be explained through general observable phenomena; people observing the skies, developing religious systems, growing crops, etc. Of course we'll have similarities in symbols and stories. None of this necessitates a global civilization where they all knew one another.

So everybody in the world is using the same alphabets? And bear in mind that the symbols existed in a time prior to writing of any kind.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

No I don't see the anomalies and gaps, I've watch Youtubes from people who have done the studies - not alien conspiracy theorists but actual scientists and the like. The Caucasiod race itself is a genetic anomaly that science says couldn't possibly have evolved - but here I am anyway. Oddities are one thing, the unexplainable is something else - as is what is contradictory to evolution.

There's nothing alien or unexplainable about the ''caucasoid race'' [lol ]. The existence of blond hair, blue eyes, white skin can all be explained through natural selection and we do not require gods, aliens, or some non-existent race of super beings to explain their existence.

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Then I guess you know better than the scientists who are doing this for a living. Science is not a belief system and they have the scientific evidence, where all you have is your opinion.

The evidence of consciousness existing before matter is in quantum theory, unless you're going to debunk that too?

I know a lot of spiritual folk like to imagine that science proves god, angels, afterlife etc. but there's been no scientific evidence for any of this. What does happen a lot is New Age guru's, like Deepak Chopra, misusing technical language for the wrong means to impress gullible people, whereas actual quantum physicists don't have proof for the existence of an afterlife or spirits. What happens a lot in alternative circles is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism

There's simply no scientific evidence for spirits and an afterlife realm, which by the way doesn't devalue spirituality (!).

Originally Posted by Greenslade

So everybody in the world is using the same alphabets? And bear in mind that the symbols existed in a time prior to writing of any kind.

People make some symbols on a cave wall or on pottery. Some symbols across the world will be similar because people observe the sun, moon, herbivores, carnivores, trees, etc. I mean... so bloody what?

Originally Posted by Altair

There's nothing alien or unexplainable about the ''caucasoid race'' [lol ]. The existence of blond hair, blue eyes, white skin can all be explained through natural selection and we do not require gods, aliens, or some non-existent race of super beings to explain their existence.

Then I guess you know more than the scientists so there's no point in going over this ground again.

Originally Posted by Altair

I know a lot of spiritual folk like to imagine that science proves god, angels, afterlife etc. but there's been no scientific evidence for any of this. What does happen a lot is New Age guru's, like Deepak Chopra, misusing technical language for the wrong means to impress gullible people, whereas actual quantum physicists don't have proof for the existence of an afterlife or spirits. What happens a lot in alternative circles is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mysticism

There's simply no scientific evidence for spirits and an afterlife realm, which by the way doesn't devalue spirituality (!).

I don't look to Spirituality for any answers but saying that there are times when even myths and legends seem to reflect what's known.


As for science and an AfterLife, the jury is still out on that one but there are scientists who think they have credible proof that there is one. There are many very plausible hypotheses out there.

Originally Posted by Altair

People make some symbols on a cave wall or on pottery. Some symbols across the world will be similar because people observe the sun, moon, herbivores, carnivores, trees, etc. I mean... so bloody what?

The symbols were abstract in a time when the human brain wasn't capable of being abstract, there was actually a TEDTalk about them. At that stage in evolution, if they wanted to depict a tree or an animal that's exactly what they would paint, they wouldn't paint symbols for anything.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Then I guess you know more than the scientists so there's no point in going over this ground again.

The existence of white skin, blond hair, and blue eyes can all be explained. You may say ''scientist x says z'' but what really matters is the science, and not, for example, whether an individual scientist believes in gods or Easter Bunny or space demons. Next to that, anyone can claim to be anyone, so again, focus should rest on evidence and reason.

You seem to reject both gods and aliens so what's left, and following your argument in general, is that there are supposedly some unknown super-intelligent beings that somehow created all the ancient civilizations [maybe humans were ''too stupid'' themselves?] and meddled with human DNA. This basically is the same as the belief in ancient astronauts, only this time they're not aliens. However, the same issues still apply.

Why invoke such things when human evolution and history are well understood. Granted, not completely, but well enough to know we don't need gods, aliens, or unknown species Z [undefined by you] to explain both the evolution of life on earth and the progress of civilization. There's zero evidence for gods, aliens, ancient whatever cosmic race interfering with human history and human DNA. People made up all sorts of stories to explain the universe, life on earth, and our place in it, and when you closely analyse it you can see evolution of belief systems where humans became more central, and this returns in how they view(ed) god(s) and explained life [especially human life] on earth.

Originally Posted by Altair

The existence of white skin, blond hair, and blue eyes can all be explained. You may say ''scientist x says z'' but what really matters is the science, and not, for example, whether an individual scientist believes in gods or Easter Bunny or space demons. Next to that, anyone can claim to be anyone, so again, focus should rest on evidence and reason.

You seem to reject both gods and aliens so what's left, and following your argument in general, is that there are supposedly some unknown super-intelligent beings that somehow created all the ancient civilizations [maybe humans were ''too stupid'' themselves?] and meddled with human DNA. This basically is the same as the belief in ancient astronauts, only this time they're not aliens. However, the same issues still apply.

Why invoke such things when human evolution and history are well understood. Granted, not completely, but well enough to know we don't need gods, aliens, or unknown species Z [undefined by you] to explain both the evolution of life on earth and the progress of civilization. There's zero evidence for gods, aliens, ancient whatever cosmic race interfering with human history and human DNA. People made up all sorts of stories to explain the universe, life on earth, and our place in it, and when you closely analyse it you can see evolution of belief systems where humans became more central, and this returns in how they view(ed) god(s) and explained life [especially human life] on earth.

Never mind Altair, it's come to the stage where this is not a conversation any more. Thanks for the interaction so far.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

As for science and an AfterLife, the jury is still out on that one but there are scientists who think they have credible proof that there is one. There are many very plausible hypotheses out there.

The symbols were abstract in a time when the human brain wasn't capable of being abstract, there was actually a TEDTalk about them. At that stage in evolution, if they wanted to depict a tree or an animal that's exactly what they would paint, they wouldn't paint symbols for anything.

Speaking of symbols, I found the following (excerpted from Seth Speaks) fascinating:

At this point many variations in behavior emerge, each the result of individual background, knowledge, and habit. The surroundings in Which the dead find themselves will often vary. Vivid hallucinations may form experience quite as real as any in mortal life. Now, I have told you that thoughts and emotions form physical reality, and they form after-death experience [as well]. This does not mean that the experiences are not valid, any more than it means that physical life is not valid.

Certain images have been used to symbolize such a transition from one existence to another, and many of these are extremely valuable in that they provide a framework with understandable references. The crossing of the River Styx is such a one. The dying expected certain procedures to occur in a more or less orderly fashion. The maps were known beforehand. At death, the consciousness hallucinated the river vividly. Relatives and friends already dead entered into the ritual, which was a profound ceremony also on their parts. The river was as real as any that you know, as treacherous to a traveler alone without proper knowledge. Guides were always at the river to help such travelers across.

It does not do to say that such a river is illusion. The symbol is reality, you see. The way was planned. Now, that particular map is no longer generally in use. The living do not know how to read it. Christianity has believed in a heaven and a hell, a purgatory, and reckoning; and so, at death, to those who so believe in these symbols,another ceremony is enacted, and the guides take on the guises of those beloved figures of Christian saints and heroes.

Then with this as framework, and in terms that they can understand, such individuals are told the true situation. Mass religious movements have for centuries fulfilled that purpose, in giving man some plan to be followed. It little mattered that later the plan was seen as a child's primer, a book of instructions complete with colorful tales, for the main purpose was served and there was little disorientation.

In periods where no such mass ideas are held, there is more disorientation, and when life after death is completely denied, the problem is somewhat magnified. Many, of course, are overjoyed to find themselves still conscious. Others have to learn all over again about certain laws of behavior, for they do not realize the creative potency of their thoughts or emotions. Such an individual may find himself in ten different environments within the flicker of an eyelash, for example, with no idea of the reason behind the situation. He will see no continuity at all, and feel himself flung without rhyme or reason from one experience to another, never realizing that his own thoughts are propelling him quite literally.

I am speaking now of the events immediately following death, for there are other stages. Guides will helpfully become a part of your hallucinations, in order to help you out of them, but they must first of all get your trust.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

Why invoke such things when human evolution and history are well understood.

I question this. There is an orthodox view of human evolution and history which is taught as fact, but who can say that this is actually correct. There are many anomalies which do not fit in with this orthodox view, the most obvious one being the Great Pyramid at Giza. Perhaps one day further discoveries will be made which will mean that our entire understanding of the subject will have to be revised.

Peace.

[Altair]

There's nothing to suggest the Pyramids were built with sci-fi tech, and built by space aliens, superman race, or gods. We can see that there are different pyramids and they are not all the same. In the Middle Ages there were people who believed the Roman aquaducts were made by giants. The Egyptians were experts at what they did and you can go there and see the stuff for yourself, such as the unfinished obelisk or all the pyramids and notice ancient trial and errors across the land.

Concerning evolution;
Much misunderstandings some people have comes from their assumptions of linearity, and of organisms being *fixed*. But life's actually malleable and imperfect, not flawless and static. When people imagine gaps and anomalies they may as well look at dog breeds and state that dogs don't have wolf ancestors ''because there's no half poodle-wolf around''. Similarly, they may assume that there should really be chimpmen or some UrangUtan-Chinaman. In truth, there are no ''missing links'' [more on that below], and the evolution of hominids too, isn't a mystery. There is no meaningful wall between us and them. Consciousness too [the frequently perceived ''wall''] is not something *fixed*. It's not even fixed in ourselves.

Where was consciousness when you were a fetus, or a baby? Where was your self awareness then? Where was your rationality as a toddler? Where is your ability to speak, to memorize, to recognize faces, and so forth when parts of your brain are damaged?

Humans can get attached and caught up in *essentialism*. It's why some cannot grasp natural selection and neither a progress of civilization from simple to complex. No, instead everything must have been perfectly there at the start or popped out of nowhere at the grace of imaginary beings. Alien interventionism and ID are guilty of the same errors and flawed thinking that we can see in creationism.

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Anyway, here's a video..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwW4... index=2&t=0s

Description: ''The myth of the Missing Link--the idea that there must be a specimen that partly resembles an ape but also partly resembles a modern human--is persistent. But the reality is that there is no missing link in our lineage, because that’s not how evolution works.''

And an article..

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ossil-fallacy/
''The Fossil Fallacy. Creationists' demand for fossils that represent "missing links" reveals a deep misunderstanding of science.''

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Altair

There's nothing to suggest the Pyramids were built with sci-fi tech, and built by space aliens, superman race, or gods. We can see that there are different pyramids and they are not all the same. In the Middle Ages there were people who believed the Roman aquaducts were made by giants. The Egyptians were experts at what they did and you can go there and see the stuff for yourself, such as the unfinished obelisk or all the pyramids and notice ancient trial and errors across the land.

I was speaking specifically of the Great Pyramid - as you say, there are many pyramids and they are not all the same. But the Great Pyramid stands out as different and raises many questions. The orthodox view of human development does not answer these questions.

Peace.