The Three Kayas

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by Gem

There's always an issue with translation where the cultural thought frame is not the same as Western framework, and today's social psychology is way different than it was back in the day. We don't even have the same framework of understanding, let alone conformity across the text.

Yes that is so true. Buddhism describes an experience, a non-conceptual one at that, and it seems to most people now days, Buddhism is about concepts. If you look at early Buddhism, besides being about experience it was also about behavior. The hundreds of rules for monks comes to mind. These rules regulated everything from sex to eating to the robes they wore, what was allowed to be said and on and on. Buddhism was focused on what one was moment to moment. One was required to be extremely self aware in each moment, aware of what one was doing, what one was saying, what one was thinking. The purpose of which was entering into this new non-conceptual way of being.

I doubt many now days even know what a lived moment to moment non-conceptual experience refers to. Since they are wholly thought centered, all they can do is imagine what it is conceptually. Or thought lets them play around with it in "practices."

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Yes that is so true. Buddhism describes an experience, a non-conceptual one at that, and it seems to most people now days, Buddhism is about concepts. If you look at early Buddhism, besides being about experience it was also about behavior. The hundreds of rules for monks comes to mind. These rules regulated everything from sex to eating to the robes they wore, what was allowed to be said and on and on. Buddhism was focused on what one was moment to moment. One was required to be extremely self aware in each moment, aware of what one was doing, what one was saying, what one was thinking. The purpose of which was entering into this new non-conceptual way of being.

I doubt many now days even know what a lived moment to moment non-conceptual experience refers to. Since they are wholly thought centered, all they can do is imagine what it is conceptually. Or thought lets them play around with it in "practices."

From my perspective, there's a philosophy which goes with a practice, so existential questioning such as 'what is emptiness' or 'what is nirvana' and so forth is impractical, whereas discourse on volition and kamma is applicable, for example, because we can be aware of volition and its outcomes. Call it 'applied Buddhism'. But it isn't a practiced religion of costume, ritual and belief, so when it comes to believing in emptiness or believing that nirvana can or can't be achieved in this lifetime, I'm like, it doesn't make much difference what individuals believe. This breath is here unquestionably, doubtlessly, regardless of anyone's beliefs.



The teachings are quite clear about 'special experiences' as maya, so there is a deeper element which is actually very obvious and familiar, called disposition. It's obvious because we are aware when our disposition is unstable, agitated, scatty, and when it is calm and present. We learn by experience that we're clear minded, and our work is better, and we are happier, when we are calm and focused (as opposed to being agitated and distracted). In short, being calm and present creates optimum outcomes (compared to being reactive and distracted).


There is so much to be said for having presence of mind. Being present with 'this' in the way that it is, and if we are aware of what we do in this moment, then the best possible outcomes are enabled anyway.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

From my perspective, there's a philosophy which goes with a practice, so existential questioning such as 'what is emptiness' or 'what is nirvana' and so forth is impractical, whereas discourse on volition and kamma is applicable, for example, because we can be aware of volition and its outcomes. Call it 'applied Buddhism'. But it isn't a practiced religion of costume, ritual and belief, so when it comes to believing in emptiness or believing that nirvana can or can't be achieved in this lifetime, I'm like, it doesn't make much difference what individuals believe. This breath is here unquestionably, doubtlessly, regardless of anyone's beliefs.



The teachings are quite clear about 'special experiences' as maya, so there is a deeper element which is actually very obvious and familiar, called disposition. It's obvious because we are aware when our disposition is unstable, agitated, scatty, and when it is calm and present. We learn by experience that we're clear minded, and our work is better, and we are happier, when we are calm and focused (as opposed to being agitated and distracted). In short, being calm and present creates optimum outcomes (compared to being reactive and distracted).


There is so much to be said for having presence of mind. Being present with 'this' in the way that it is, and if we are aware of what we do in this moment, then the best possible outcomes are enabled anyway.

I think at times you come across in a negative light with regard to what you call "special experiences".

They are part of the path, things that people experience in and out of practice all the time and need help with.

I know someone right now who has progressed to where he is feeling energy a lot during the day. The energy feels ecstatic, very, very sexual. He is having a hard time trying understanding where this energy is coming from, why is it making him feel this way at all times during the day. Waiting for the bus, at work, it doesn't matter what he is doing and it is making him depressed.

I can assure you that having a silent mind or focusing on the breath won't stop what is happening to him, won't stop the intensity of what is going on.

As a matter of fact having an ungrasping mind when the energy is flowing like that can make it even stronger, more intense. Grasping at it, wanting more makes it go away. Fighting it.. well, just like with my friend can make one depressed.

Now in many traditions feeling such ecstatic energy is considered a very good thing. It is a very definite sign of progress.

Now to some these things are nonsense, concepts, the imagination. To be dismissed because well.. for some they are advanced, have it figured out and they don't feel those things. Maybe, well it of course the person is doing something wrong and if he just ignored that stuff and did something else it would all go away.

It is easy to dismiss what one doesn't understand, what one doesn't have experience in.

The teachings are concepts to those who have yet to realize them. To those who have they are realized lived states of being.

Now if anyone is really serious about finding out if any of it is real I will make this offer to you. To directly show you, to directly introduce you to deeper levels of silence and energy.

It is real easy to find out if any of this stuff is real or not. If it is of the mind or not. If you don't want to work with me, I understand there are others who can introduce you as well if you are interested. If you would rather talk to them, here what people experience, feel, are there lives getting better before you do anything. You can do that as well.

The offer is there for you to find out.. or you can continue down the path of dismissing and belittling teachings you haven't realized yet.

This post isn't just directed at you Gem.. the offer is open to everyone that has an open heart and is truly open to finding out.

[Rain95]

Once there was a monk in a village who went around convincing children a monster lived under their beds. Soon all the parents were angry at the monk because all the children were having trouble sleeping, having trouble getting out of bed in the morning as they thought the monster may grab them. The children could not concentrate in school as they were all discussing how to be safe with monsters living under their beds.

So the parents confronted the monk and told him to confess to all the children that he made it all up, that there were no monsters living under their beds or anywhere else. But the monk said, do your children feel afraid? The parents said yes!. The monk said, do your children think about and experience those monsters all day long? The parents said yes! So the monk said, if the monsters were not real, your children would not be feeling and experiencing them all day. You too must believe they are there, stop denying reality! The monk said, I can show you they are real. Your doubts are blocking you from experiencing the monsters! Just believe and you too will feel their presence. You will see they are real.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Rain95

Once there was a monk in a village who went around convincing children a monster lived under their beds. Soon all the parents were angry at the monk because all the children were having trouble sleeping, having trouble getting out of bed in the morning as they thought the monster may grab them. The children could not concentrate in school as they were all discussing how to be safe with monsters living under their beds.

So the parents confronted the monk and told him to confess to all the children that he made it all up, that there were no monsters living under their beds or anywhere else. But the monk said, do your children feel afraid? The parents said yes!. The monk said, do your children think about and experience those monsters all day long? The parents said yes! So the monk said, if the monsters were not real, your children would not be feeling and experiencing them all day. You too must believe they are there, stop denying reality! The monk said, I can show you they are real. Your doubts are blocking you from experiencing the monsters! Just believe and you too will feel their presence. You will see they are real.

The difference, I am asking no one to believe anything. Nor is there any talk of monsters.

I am saying one can directly experience it.. not just believe in a thing.. a big difference.

Kinda like saying believe in dragons compared to saying let me show you a real one

[running]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I think at times you come across in a negative light with regard to what you call "special experiences".

They are part of the path, things that people experience in and out of practice all the time and need help with.

I know someone right now who has progressed to where he is feeling energy a lot during the day. The energy feels ecstatic, very, very sexual. He is having a hard time trying understanding where this energy is coming from, why is it making him feel this way at all times during the day. Waiting for the bus, at work, it doesn't matter what he is doing and it is making him depressed.

I can assure you that having a silent mind or focusing on the breath won't stop what is happening to him, won't stop the intensity of what is going on.

As a matter of fact having an ungrasping mind when the energy is flowing like that can make it even stronger, more intense. Grasping at it, wanting more makes it go away. Fighting it.. well, just like with my friend can make one depressed.

Now in many traditions feeling such ecstatic energy is considered a very good thing. It is a very definite sign of progress.

Now to some these things are nonsense, concepts, the imagination. To be dismissed because well.. for some they are advanced, have it figured out and they don't feel those things. Maybe, well it of course the person is doing something wrong and if he just ignored that stuff and did something else it would all go away.

It is easy to dismiss what one doesn't understand, what one doesn't have experience in.

The teachings are concepts to those who have yet to realize them. To those who have they are realized lived states of being.

Now if anyone is really serious about finding out if any of it is real I will make this offer to you. To directly show you, to directly introduce you to deeper levels of silence and energy.

It is real easy to find out if any of this stuff is real or not. If it is of the mind or not. If you don't want to work with me, I understand there are others who can introduce you as well if you are interested. If you would rather talk to them, here what people experience, feel, are there lives getting better before you do anything. You can do that as well.

The offer is there for you to find out.. or you can continue down the path of dismissing and belittling teachings you haven't realized yet.

This post isn't just directed at you Gem.. the offer is open to everyone that has an open heart and is truly open to finding out.

nothing personal towards gem i should say sense he was quoted but this is much more about some confusion on the whole forum as a whole. that may be the best post i seen on the forum thus far. something that really needs to be said. articulated in a way that gets to the heart of it all concisely.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by running

nothing personal towards gem i should say sense he was quoted but this is much more about some confusion on the whole forum as a whole. that may be the best post i seen on the forum thus far. something that really needs to be said. articulated in a way that gets to the heart of it all concisely.

Thank you running very much.

Also want to say that it all wasn't directed at Gem personally.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The difference, I am asking no one to believe anything. Nor is there any talk of monsters.

I am saying one can directly experience it.. not just believe in a thing.. a big difference.

Kinda like saying believe in dragons compared to saying let me show a real one

I can directly feel a monster under my bed as well, all I have to do is believe it is there. What is being directly felt is fear. That and the belief are the only real things there. The experience is fabricated using what exists, fear and belief. That's what you are doing with "feelings" and "energy." You are fabricating experience using belief and actual feelings.

One is not experiencing a monster, they are experiencing a belief in a monster. The feelings of fear are real as is the belief. Belief exist as a physical thing in the brain. Fear is a real chemically produced feeling as well. Belief leads to real experiences and feelings. Then you can say, well the beliefs are real because you have the feelings, you feel their reality.

That's the game one can play. Better than playing games with belief and egotism, one can live simply in the now, observing one's self, and learning to live non-verbally and non-attached in each moment, in tune with our natural state of peace, without conflict within or without, in the new reality that manifests when one is awake and alert, and empty within, free from thinking and thought and conditioning and memories. One is self knowledge, awake and alert awareness, manifesting the inerrant qualities of the original self.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Rain95

I can directly feel a monster under my bed as well, all I have to do is believe it is there. What is being directly felt is fear. That and the belief are the only real things there. The experience is fabricated using what exists, fear and belief. That's what you are doing with "feelings" and "energy." You are fabricating experience using belief and actual feelings.

One is not experiencing a monster, they are experiencing a belief in a monster. The feelings of fear are real as is the belief. Belief exist as a physical thing in the brain. Fear is a real chemically produced feeling as well. Belief leads to real experiences and feelings. Then you can say, well the beliefs are real because you have the feelings, you feel their reality.

That's the game one can play. Better than playing games with belief and egotism, one can live simply in the now, observing one's self, and learning to live non-verbally and non-attached in each moment, in tune with our natural state of peace, without conflict within or without, in the new reality that manifests when one is awake and alert, and empty within, free from thinking and thought and conditioning and memories. One is self knowledge, awake and alert awareness, manifesting the inerrant qualities of the original self.

' learning to live non-verbally '


How do you do that?

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by Gem

questioning such as 'what is emptiness' or 'what is nirvana' and so forth is impractical, whereas discourse on volition and kamma is applicable,

Yes volition is basically defined as using one's will, choosing or determining, the act of making a choice or decision. It is the process by which we act and this acting is based on something. Something compels action. Different states of consciousness compel different actions (or reactions.)

Originally Posted by Gem

we can be aware of volition and its outcomes. Call it 'applied Buddhism'.

A simple example of this would be stating something you believe is true, then having someone disagree with you, then feeling conflict between you and them.

The "volition" there would be stating an inward belief or thought externally in such a way others can then be made aware of it. Then their "volition" is to refute it, to say it is untrue.

The "outcome" is conflict in this case. If someone agreed with the belief, the "outcome" would have been pleasurable.

One can be aware of these habitual processes, leading to self knowledge, which can lead to self realization. Belief is conceptual reality applied onto non-conceptual reality. The "world" is experienced through the filter of the conceptual. Self-realization allows one to experience the "world" directly, without belief or the conceptual.

Originally Posted by Gem

I'm like, it doesn't make much difference what individuals believe. This breath is here unquestionably, doubtlessly, regardless of anyone's beliefs.

Belief is like a pair of orange sunglasses one looks through. They can be thrown away! But one has to be aware one is looking through them.

Originally Posted by Gem

The teachings are quite clear about 'special experiences' as maya, so there is a deeper element which is actually very obvious and familiar, called disposition. It's obvious because we are aware when our disposition is unstable, agitated, scatty, and when it is calm and present. We learn by experience that we're clear minded, and our work is better, and we are happier, when we are calm and focused (as opposed to being agitated and distracted). In short, being calm and present creates optimum outcomes (compared to being reactive and distracted).

Disposition is the manifested qualities of mind and character. The present state of the person, including all aspects of self, memory, mood, awareness etc. Being aware of our current state, changes it. We have added a new element, awareness of the self as it is.

Originally Posted by Gem

There is so much to be said for having presence of mind. Being present with 'this' in the way that it is, and if we are aware of what we do in this moment, then the best possible outcomes are enabled anyway.