My objections to the claim of God's perfection

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by eezi-ulgen

It's probably best not to confuse written words with the perfection of The Creator... Judge God by God and judge words by their writers...

A few ideas that pop into my mind. #1. The Old Testament was not written by Christians. #2. Humans once believed the earth was flat, that the sun and all planets rotated around the earth, and another one that pretty much continues today among those who believe in "God," that the earth and all living things on it were created by a vastly superior being(s) to us "God" or "Gods." In Christianity, these God's or God are imagined as males. The Father, Son (both imagined as male) and Holy Ghost. Bishops and the Pope and Priests, all male. Why the domination by males historically? Well males tend to be physically stronger, more aggressive, more violent etc due to hormones. Religions are typically created by males.

One can for a moment put aside all religious ideas and beliefs and just look at this world as it is. With the knowledge we have today. At the facts. Then from those, think about who or what would be the creators of what we find here. For example, who or what designed DNA and why. How are species altered. How well do species exist within their environments. How do species act towards each other. This also would be part of the design of all of this. Then look at the created environment. It's extremely hostile to living things. Not the best one would hope for.

Look at what exists or was created or part of the design. Volcanos, hurricanes, tornados, floods, droughts, earthquakes, fires, diseases, mental illness, (brain disorders) predator's,(created and designed species prone to violence and which kill other species) parasites, deadly fungus and on and on. Old age! Potential addictions. A sun that will end at some point then all living things die. Actually life will end long before the death of the sun as it is over time changing.

Look at the fact dinosaurs once existed and were wiped out due to environmental factors. Why would an all powerful all knowing God create a diverse species like the dinosaurs, then have them unable to survive the environment this creator made for them? Think of it logically. Imagine you bought a bunch of lizards then you built a huge home for them in your garage then after a few months they all were dead due to you messing up in how you built their environment. Obviously there you did not know enough, did not have enough knowledge, were not aware of enough.

[Maisy]

Human beings have only existed on this planet for about 200,000 years and our impact on the earth and every thing on it has been extreme. It's estimated over 500 species have gone extinct, no longer exist on the planet, in the last 100 years alone due to humans. Does it seem like an all powerful all knowing creator or creators are in charge of earth and what happens on it?

Why allow one created species to kill off all others? Of course from a human perspective we consider ourselves to be the greatest species that exists on the planet, the most important, the only one that really matters, (unless we need another species to eat or work for us, or we get pleasure from it like in pets.) The rest we don't care about. But then look at plants and trees. We die if all of them do. We depend on them for our survival. Yet due to human population doubling every 60 or 70 years, the future is pretty bleak. Some extinct plants and animals may have held the key to curing some diseases.

It's interesting how many scientists don't really care and have said the "problem" of humans will fix itself as when food runs out or gets really low, most humans will starve to death and the "problem" then fixes itself organically and naturally. Then humans come up with other "fixes" like make electric cars etc while not addressing the doubling of the human population every 60 or 70 years. Make cars less polluting ignoring the fact 8 billion cars goes to 16 billion then 32 billion in about 140 years. Increasing with the human population. They are worried about all life in the ocean becoming extinct now. Imagine the pressures on ocean life when the human population has tripled.

This thread is called "My objections to the claim of God's perfection." Seems to me just looking at what we know and what exists or existed, looking at the facts, I think this world and every living thing on it was designed by beings much more intelligent and knowledgeable than us, vastly more intelligent and knowledgeable, but it also seems to me they are not perfect or all knowing. They seem to be tweaking DNA of species as they go, experimenting in a way, increasing in knowledge as they go. Like the increases in species intelligence, increases in brain size, humans in particular etc. I would guess these changes in the human species will continue over many thousands of years. I would guess our brain size and heads will get so big natural birth will no longer be possible. That's assuming human's at some point stop increasing in population which will probably pretty much destroy the planet. But then scientists say some insects will survive an environmental collapse that wipes out humans.
Then some science fiction movies like Soylent Green speculated humans at some point will start eating each other when other food sources are wiped out.

I think whatever and whoever created us has left this earth up to us. It's like making an aquarium in your living room, put in water a bunch of fish and water plants and see what happens. Tweak it over time. I think the purpose of the creation is so "consciousness" or "souls" increase in intelligence and awareness over time. I believe all aware living things have an energy based "true identity" that continues after the temporary physical form they have merged with ends. Which makes how animals are treated by humans even worse. Some humans care a great deal for animals so not all treat them harshly.

[Podshell]

Maisy said "I think whatever and whoever created us has left this earth up to us. It's like making an aquarium in your living room, put in water a bunch of fish and water plants and see what happens. Tweak it over time. I think the purpose of the creation is so "consciousness" or "souls" increase in intelligence and awareness over time. I believe all aware living things have an energy based "true identity" that continues after the temporary physical form they have merged with ends. Which makes how animals are treated by humans even worse. Some humans care a great deal for animals so not all treat them harshly."

From link "He has nothing to do with this material world, but He creates by His glance and ordains. In summary, material nature, without the superintendence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, cannot do anything. Yet the Supreme Personality is detached from all material activities."

https://asitis.com/9/10.html

[Miss Hepburn]

Edited, tho, cuz of the 2-3 sentence thing.

Maisy:.... dinosaurs once existed and were wiped out...
Imagine you bought a bunch of lizards then...
after a few months they all were dead due to you messing up in how you built their environment.
Obviously there *you did not know enough, *did not have enough knowledge, *were not aware of enough.

Yes, agreed that would probably be the case for the guy with the lizards.
Not obvious to me applied to this Creator, tho.

A different perspective...ha, just ONE scenario!

What if the Creator of this place could have had an entirely different idea about this planet...having nothing to do with
mistakes or not knowing enough?
If you think of this Being as a little boy or girl*...playing with miniature dolls and GI Joe's -
or Dinosaurs...pure and innocent, learning filled with wonder.

Ok_ now s/he is bored after 165 million years. Now, moves onto something more intelligent, more
, more vulnerable..and like a person with an Ant Farm - observes.

An aside: I believe this Being thinks BIG, and does not think as Man does.
Picture this 'Eden story'...2 people, 2 pairs of teeny-tiny, little lungs in this vast Universe.
Now imagine the amount of air, atmosphere, oxygen that was placed around this place for them.
This Being is too much, I tellya.

I believe this Being is a fwd thinker...and extremely imaginative...why, just
look at the weird species that live in the Oceans...7 miles deep, even!

I can not presume this Being's initial reason for 'this place' - or how it could have changed after awhile.
I personally have my believes from personal experience and they coincide with words Meher Baba has said...and Hafiz and Kabir.
Basically -
the reason revolves around Love...ultimately Love - even tho from Man's teeny limited perspective he may not
see it that way...''Love?'' Yes;
and to experience things...like sending out 'feelers' that send data back.
A diff perspective; one of many.

*... My exp is this Being has been many things or many aspects and, indeed, one is as an innocent child...
My mouth dropped when I read a Guru also said that about this Being...I could say more about this
Spirit/ Being's 'aspects'. But not here.

[BigJohn]

I claimed the creation accounts, etc. were mostly if not all written after the Jews were expelled from Israel and some of them were lead off to Babylon. I also claim there are two creations accounts and they resonate more like opinions (theories) as opposed to fact, so there should not be any problem with them.

Even 'today', man has proposed numerous theories on how 'we' got here. Some of the theories have been dismissed and others have been tweaked. We don't 'condemn' those who presented theories that were dismissed as being wrong so why do we do that with the two theories mentioned in the Bible?

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Podshell

From link "He has nothing to do with this material world,

For me, even if a "God" (the concept we created) did not create this earth or the living things on it, I still believe a "source" exists for consciousness itself. I believe we have/are aspects of this source and can "experience" this source in a lot of different ways as I believe we are always connected to it. I think "we," by we I mean our true selves, conscious awareness itself, is a part of "God" or the source and connected to it.

So I would not jump to "God" (the source) has nothing to do with this material world" as I think we are profoundly connected to God or the source in a sense. So I would say God really is in everything as I think "it" is what is conscious awareness. But then I think there is separation in a sense as we can do and be anything we want as individual "atoms" of the totality. So it's a really complicated thing. Even though we can "do any human thing we can do" the aspects of the source, which I believe are really what we are, points to love, compassion, empathy, etc. Higher things. Harmony and peace and love.

One thing I found fascinating in the book "Journey Of Souls" which is a book where a hypnotists regresses people to memories of the time between lives, is in "heaven" or the astral realm, the energy dimension, whatever one calls it, is when we are there, we also don't know how it all works or what it all is. Just like how we find "raw materials" on earth we did not create or make, like sand, which we figured out how to make glass out of. In the energy dimension, we find types of energy we did not create or make that we also have learned to make things out of such as the physical world. So we are in a sense the creators of this and the living things here, the physical biological things which may have conscious awareness merged with it for a life time. But the "Raw Energy" we did not create but instead found already existing. Within sand was always the potential for it to be turned into glass. Likewise I think the energies found in the energy realms also have potentials for us to make others things with them and this potential was always a part of them. What made the raw energies? What made consciousness potential within energy? Not us in my view.

So I don't think a theory a "God" did not create this planet or the things on it diminishes a belief in God at all. I think the opposite.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

extremely imaginative...why, just
look at the weird species that live in the Oceans...7 miles deep, even!

Look at a spider and a kitten. I think they were not created by the same entity. We all have individual tastes and things we like. Different creative talents that are born out of who and what we are. Look at a movie made by Tim Burton and one made by Walt Disney. Some people love insects and find them beautiful and fascinating. Others hate them. I don't think the same entity could have made both a spider and a kitten/cat. A deep sea fish and a Panda Bear. It's like looking at art work done by Maxfield Parrish and Hans Ruedi Giger. One can Google those and look at difference.

I think yes it shows imagination but to me it also shows individual tastes and interests. I would point out how much humans (souls in physical bodies) create. We create non-stop. Our homes, our relationships, our foods, our cities and everything in them. Look in one bookstore. Thousands of books. Look at how many movies now exist. Too many for anyone to watch. Eight billion people creating. Making stuff. Rearranging stuff. Making an impact on what exists.

Now what do these billions of souls (who create and express non-stop when on earth) do when not in a physical body? And in the energy dimension it's a lot more than the 8 billion humans on earth now. It's every soul that has ever existed and existed on how many planets? I think we keep creating there and that to me explain the billions of life forms we find here and the aesthetic differences between them.

[Podshell]

Maisy, having trouble cutting and pasting on new device as unable to scroll in box so will post a few quotes from Gita that may be of interest .


TRANSLATION

Others conceive of the Personality of Godhead residing within the body in the region of the heart and measuring only eight inches, with four hands carrying a lotus, a wheel of a chariot, a conchshell and a club respectively.

PURPORT

The all-pervading Personality of Godhead resides as Paramātmā in the heart of each and every living entity. The measurement of the localized Personality of Godhead is estimated to expand from the ring finger to the end of the thumb, more or less eight inches.

https://www.prabhupada-media.net/boo...the-Heart.html
There is no such place as tatastha-sakti where jiva-souls are literally generated from or originate from because they have always been and where never created.

https://iskcondesiretree.com/profile...gdoms-of-god-a
According to the Purāṇas, the material cosmos is created and destroyed in a perpetual cycle through eternity, and so the act of creation is not a one-time affair but one that is repeated an infinite number of times.

* Once the physical universe and its constituent parts are brought into being by Lord Viṣṇu, Brahmā’s role in the creation act is to evolve the multifarious types of bodily forms (species) to be inhabited by the innumerable conditioned living beings (jīvas) in accordance with their previous karma—actions performed by them during their existence in previous millennia.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Maisy

Look at a spider and a kitten. I think they were not created by the same entity.

Spiders and kittens contain DNA. A Kitten's DNA has 90.2% of 'our' DNA whereas a Spider has about 63%.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Maisy

I think they were not created by the same entity.....
I think we keep creating there and that to me explain the billions of life forms
we find here and the aesthetic differences between them.

I have never heard of these 2 ideas. And to me that is something - only because
I've been around awhile...and have read so much on spiritual things..never heard anyone say this.
I can appreciate unique thinking.