Ethetic vs. astral

[Shabda]

Originally Posted by mac

How can we be "literally there" when we are in actuality literally here - in-the-body and living our lives?

very very easily, soul has an awareness to such a degree, that if you were to become aware of it, you wouldnt even ask this question....believe me, i DO understand how you are having a hard time stretching your mind over the concept, i once felt the same way about it, but after decades of conscious exploration of the inner planes, i have found that it is indeed the case....it seems as if it is a matter of split personalities, but this isnt at all the case, it is more a matter of not being consciously aware of all of the aspects of consciousness that all of us truly are.
I know of at least 20 different people that have all had conscious OBE's and who have also encountered higher aspects of their selves, which is to say astral, mental or etheric inner bodies, consciously coming and smacking them or some such action because of a mistake in choice that they had made, it does happen...my opinion on this is not based solely on my own experiences, but also comparable ones of others, and it is no less shocking to discover that the inner aspects of our consciousness are able to lead full daily lives, doing things at times that we only wish we could do, while we only enter these states of consciousness at certain points in time, whether purposefully or not, such as dreaming for example.
The soul is able to withdraw it's consciousness to the size of an atom, or literally expand to encompass the entirety of the cosmos (on all planes) so if viewing in this way, it is easy to see how this can happen without our being aware of it...this also means that "travel" is an illusion, there is no going "there" and leaving the body "here", it only seems that way up to a certain point...the only thing that changes places is where we are placing/using our attention, so, of course, we can move our attention from one state to another...

Originally Posted by Shabda

very very easily, soul has an awareness to such a degree, that if you were to become aware of it, you wouldnt even ask this question....believe me, i DO understand how you are having a hard time stretching your mind over the concept, i once felt the same way about it, but after decades of conscious exploration of the inner planes, i have found that it is indeed the case....it seems as if it is a matter of split personalities, but this isnt at all the case, it is more a matter of not being consciously aware of all of the aspects of consciousness that all of us truly are.
I know of at least 20 different people that have all had conscious OBE's and who have also encountered higher aspects of their selves, which is to say astral, mental or etheric inner bodies, consciously coming and smacking them or some such action because of a mistake in choice that they had made, it does happen...my opinion on this is not based solely on my own experiences, but also comparable ones of others, and it is no less shocking to discover that the inner aspects of our consciousness are able to lead full daily lives, doing things at times that we only wish we could do, while we only enter these states of consciousness at certain points in time, whether purposefully or not, such as dreaming for example.
The soul is able to withdraw it's consciousness to the size of an atom, or literally expand to encompass the entirety of the cosmos (on all planes) so if viewing in this way, it is easy to see how this can happen without our being aware of it...this also means that "travel" is an illusion, there is no going "there" and leaving the body "here", it only seems that way up to a certain point...the only thing that changes places is where we are placing/using our attention, so, of course, we can move our attention from one state to another...

Forgive me but when I ask questions it does not always mean that I do not follow.... What I seek is a clear explanation, an empirical one, devoid of all the personal issues. No matter how many fellow experiencers you have encountered, each of you is experiencing on a personal level. That doesn't mean the experiences are invalid but it doesn't constitute any body of evidence save that at the personal level - it applies to yourselves and you all happen to experience it in similar ways.

I agree with the aspects of 'here' and 'there'. They're simply convenient shorthand to differentiate between different states of being and necessary for most because they have no other concept of states-of-existence. Indeed many can scarcely conceive of the most fundamental principles.....

What should be remembered, I suggest, is that not everyone will have such 'abilities' to mentally journey in such ways and not all who do will interpret their journeys accurately or empirically. The explanations, the evidence I spoke about earlier, may be far more complex than even what you have attempted and are largely irrelevant to our day-to-day lives in the physical. Were it meant to be any other way then that's how it would have been designed!

In the body our interpretations of our personal experiences may not be relied upon because we are constrained by the very systems we use to explain the inexplicable.

Only when totally freed from the shackles of our physical systems may we begin to appreciate what we think we understand.

[Shabda]

Originally Posted by mac

Forgive me but when I ask questions it does not always mean that I do not follow.... What I seek is a clear explanation, an empirical one, devoid of all the personal issues. No matter how many fellow experiencers you have encountered, each of you is experiencing on a personal level. That doesn't mean the experiences are invalid but it doesn't constitute any body of evidence save that at the personal level - it applies to yourselves and you all happen to experience it in similar ways.

I agree with the aspects of 'here' and 'there'. They're simply convenient shorthand to differentiate between different states of being and necessary for most because they have no other concept of states-of-existence. Indeed many can scarcely conceive of the most fundamental principles.....

What should be remembered, I suggest, is that not everyone will have such 'abilities' to mentally journey in such ways and not all who do will interpret their journeys accurately or empirically. The explanations, the evidence I spoke about earlier, may be far more complex than even what you have attempted and are largely irrelevant to our day-to-day lives in the physical. Were it meant to be any other way then that's how it would have been designed!

In the body our interpretations of our personal experiences may not be relied upon because we are constrained by the very systems we use to explain the inexplicable.

Only when totally freed from the shackles of our physical systems may we begin to appreciate what we think we understand.

you do realize that "empirical" itself is an illusion right?? lol, if you seek this, you'll have no choice but to seek your own experiences on the matter, the next best thing i can think of is reading the writings of various saints around the world, a great many of them say the very same things...there is NO way to take personal perceptions out of the equation, but when taking a group's individual experiences, regardless of how they are colored in a personal sense, the same truths are found to be repeated, and this is as close to "empirical" evidence that i have ever been able to find, and thus my reason for including that several other people have witnessed the same thing....at the end of the day, it always comes down to personal experiences, there is no other way to know anything, and if there are a great many agreeing accounts or experiences, that tends to imply truths beyond an individual perception...either way it looks the same, there is no proof of the astral plane even existing, and there is no proof an out of body experience actually happens, but personal experience doesnt agree with that standard either, so on both counts a search for any empirical evidence will always fail, these are things that one can prove to themselves, but never to another...as for spiritually realized teachers all agreeing and therefore constituting a near truth, yes, that seems to be the case, however, that is a long way from proving how many of these teachers actually had a high degree of spiritual experience, as opposed to the level of experience that others believe they had, and at the same time, i can use that as an evidence for what i have said, but that doesnt mean that you or anyone else is going to accept it...

Originally Posted by Shabda

you do realize that "empirical" itself is an illusion right?? lol, if you seek this, you'll have no choice but to seek your own experiences on the matter, the next best thing i can think of is reading the writings of various saints around the world, a great many of them say the very same things...there is NO way to take personal perceptions out of the equation, but when taking a group's individual experiences, regardless of how they are colored in a personal sense, the same truths are found to be repeated, and this is as close to "empirical" evidence that i have ever been able to find, and thus my reason for including that several other people have witnessed the same thing....at the end of the day, it always comes down to personal experiences, there is no other way to know anything, and if there are a great many agreeing accounts or experiences, that tends to imply truths beyond an individual perception...either way it looks the same, there is no proof of the astral plane even existing, and there is no proof an out of body experience actually happens, but personal experience doesnt agree with that standard either, so on both counts a search for any empirical evidence will always fail, these are things that one can prove to themselves, but never to another...as for spiritually realized teachers all agreeing and therefore constituting a near truth, yes, that seems to be the case, however, that is a long way from proving how many of these teachers actually had a high degree of spiritual experience, as opposed to the level of experience that others believe they had, and at the same time, i can use that as an evidence for what i have said, but that doesnt mean that you or anyone else is going to accept it...

When a subject is taught by those generally accepted by the majority as teachers and/or guides I am much more inclined to listen. When the words come from persons in-the-body they have less power to persuade because of the frailities of our perception systems.

Actual proof is unlikely to be forthcoming on this side of the divide either way but evidence in sufficient quantity works for me. Such evidence is absent from the matters we have been debating but I've enjoyed our interchanges. I suppose we now have little more that either can say to the other.

Good fortune on your journey.