Vedic gods vs Hindu gods

[Pleroma]

Why Vedism?

Why Vedism?

Now we have come full circle, ending with the questions we began with:

Is Vedism a form of Hinduism?
Are Kali, Siva, Krsna, Laxmi, Ganesha, Rama, Sita, Hanuman or Durga Vedic?
Why Vedism?

Hopefully you have come to the conclusion that Vedism is not a form of Hinduism, not only because Vedism came before the Hindu practices but also because the differences between the two faiths. Vedism believes in polytheism, heaven, no reincarnation, no hell, Rta, dharman, karman, sruti and a class system. Hinduism believes in monism, reincarnation, judgement, Karma, Dharma, a caste system, smrti and Brahma.

By the same token one should know that the gods of Hinduism are not Vedic gods, owing in part to the differences between sruti and smrti.

Yet, is Hinduism Indo-European? If not, when did it cease to be such? It is my opinion that when the people rebelled against Vedism and began the offshoot religions that they ceased to be practicing an Indo-European religion.

These individuals turned away from their old religion and embraced a new one, leaving the old behind. Some terms and gods remain but their meanings and status are now quite different. The people rejected the old ways in favour of religions and philosophies that show a great disdain for the Vedic practices.

Logic then has us ask aren't these new religions just natural progressions of Vedism? I would argue that they are not. I would suggest that these new religions were guided by men to separate themselves from the human corruption within Vedism. This was not a natural evolution but a rebellion.

It is true that eventually the Vedic religion may have taken similar turns as the new religions. This is evident in the Brahmanas and Upanisads. However, had Vedism been allowed to eveolve and had it become monistic, or monothesitic, I feel it would still retain the names of the gods of the Vedas and not the new creations of the post-Vedic texts. So why Vedism? Why not Hinduism? Why not Jainism? Why not Buddhism?

When I came to Vedism it was a silent religion. It was facing the fierce battle of the old gods and the new gods, and losing. I felt I belonged more in Vedism than anywhere else: it shares my beliefs, I can converse with the gods, I connect with the rituals.

Why do I not practice one of the offshoot religions? There are three reasons. The first is that because Vedism was built around a nomadic people it was geared more towards community. Community is very important to me, as is the aiding of others. This is not to say there is nothing individualized within Vedism, rather it is very community based. The offshoot religions are more egocentric, focusing on the individual and their path.

The second is the fundamental belief systems. I do not believe in reincarnation. I believe in heaven. I do not believe in karma. I believe in karman. I do not believe in Dharma, Brahma, enlightenment, Gurus or the validity of the smrti texts. I believe in dharman, Rta, free-will and the sruti.

The third reason is one I have put a great deal of thought into. We all know that in many of the Indo-European cultures there are wars between the new gods and the old gods.

Imagine, if you will, that you worshiped the old gods. What would your feelings be towards the worship of the new gods? How would you react to the new gods turning the ways of the old gods on their head until they no longer reflected the old beliefs? What would you think to know your gods were to now live in the realm of scholastic research only? How would you feel knowing your gods were now shadows of their former selves, pushed to back burners and given little to no respect and ridiculed? What would you do in knowing that your gods are being forgotten?

In the Indo-European myth of the old gods and the new gods, the Vedic gods would be the old gods. The new gods are those of the offshoot religions. Rather than fight the old gods, the new gods have created new myths which ignore many of the old gods. This results in the vast majority of the old gods being forgotten with the remaining being demoted to lesser beings. The vast majority of Vedic gods are no longer worshipped. The exception to this is Vsnu.

Vsnu is a Vedic god and he did make it over to Hinduism favourably. Unfortunately, the Vsnu of Hindu lore is not the Vsnu of Vedic lore. The same is said of Surya, Usas and Sarsvati. Surya now has a very minor role, the brilliance of his consort Usas is all but forgotten in favour of Kali, Laxmi and Durga. Sarsvati, who was a minor river goddess deity in the Vedas, is seen as a major goddess of learning in Hinduism having swallowed up the Vedic goddess Vac.

I worship the old gods. I give no respect to the new gods whether they are post-Vedic, pre-Vedic or man made smrti creations. This is why Vedism. It is because Vedism is about bettering myself to help my community. It is because Vedism is not about tying yourself to the score cards of Dharma and Karma. Vedism is about taking responsibility for your actions and your choices. Vedism is about being responsible for your own life. Vedism is about having only one chance to get it right.

Vedism is about honouring the old gods.

I completely agree with this article here. Hindu gods like Krishna, Rama, Lakshmi, Ganesha, Parvathi, Kali, Shiva, Durga, Hanuman are not real and they are just stories. The real gods are the Vedic gods like Agni, Soma, Varuna, Aruna, Yama, Surya, Daksha, Usha, Ashwin, Pushan, Mitra, Savitr, Twastha etc etc.

Its time to honor the old gods and end the ignorance shrouded by these Hindu gods upon Indian minds.

[Vinayaka]

Recent (earlier this year) genetic and archeological evidence has debunked the AIT, hence eliminating the existence of Indo-European, as a theory.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Aryan-Inva.../dp/B00AEIHF2Y

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/15061...heory-rejected

The Vedic Gods are still worshiped in some rituals that 'feed' nature.

But really dharma is about how we live our lives, not how we interpret history.

[Pleroma]

This thread is not about AIT, irrespective of whether Aryans were indigenous to India or migrated to India from else where it remains a fact that modern Hindus do not worship the Vedic gods seriously any more. Hindu gods are minor compared to the Vedic gods and their Puranas are just stories and no greater reality should be attributed to them.

[sunsoul]

Hopefully you have come to the conclusion that Vedism is not a form of Hinduism, not only because Vedism came before the Hindu practices but also because the differences between the two faiths. Vedism believes in polytheism, heaven, no reincarnation, no hell, Rta, dharman, karman, sruti and a class system. Hinduism believes in monism, reincarnation, judgement, Karma, Dharma, a caste system, smrti and Brahma.

I really don't know who wrote this article but it seems very wishy washy in parts. The so-called comparison as illustrated is erroneous... In Vedic religion, the Advaita Vedanta tradition is prominent and monotheistic not polytheistic. Of course reincarnation is recognised in practically all Vedic traditions! In fact, you would really have to dig hard to find a Vedic/Hindu tradition that didn't believe in reincarnation (the relatively minor Mimamsa school being one example).

If you class Vishnu as a Vedic God then you would class Brahma as a Vedic god.. A lot of the information just doesn't make much sense....

[Pleroma]

Originally Posted by sunsoul

In Vedic religion, the Advaita Vedanta tradition is prominent and monotheistic not polytheistic.

The so called monotheistic Advaita Vedanta is propagated by self proclaimed gurus of modern Hinduism who lack all knowledge of sruti and the Vedas and the Upanishads.

Even Shankara, the reviver of Advaita philosophy in the 7th century AD was wrong. The correct formulation of Advaita Vedanta as believed by the Vedic rishis was given by Sri Aurobindo in the form of Integral Advaitism where he strongly criticizes the views of Shankara.

Of course reincarnation is recognised in practically all Vedic traditions! In fact, you would really have to dig hard to find a Vedic/Hindu tradition that didn't believe in reincarnation (the relatively minor Mimamsa school being one example).

It is only in the Upanishads and in Bhagavad Gita written by Vyasa, the corrupter of the Vedas that too much emphasis is given to reincarnation, in the Vedas reincarnation is not emphasized much and almost completely absent.

If you class Vishnu as a Vedic God then you would class Brahma as a Vedic god.. A lot of the information just doesn't make much sense....

There is no concept of Hindu trinity (Vishnu, Shiva and Brahma) in the Vedas and hence such a view is completely rubbish.

[Vinayaka]

I pointed out AIT as one falsity in he article, because it was easily recognisable. The fact of the matter today is that 95% of Hindus worship Vishnu in many forms, Shiva in a couple of forms, Shakti, or any of the Smarta 6. To deny that means you've never been to India or inside any of the 800 temples here in the west.

However, the 'Vedic' Gods are still invoked. Just the other day at an annual temple festival, we re-established the boundary via 8 directions and Varuna, Yama, Vayu, etc. were all worshiped. Yes, in a smaller Vedic ceremony.

But to declare that 900 million + people are worshiping imaginary Gods isn't really helpful to anyone. Anyone, on their own, is welcome to have differing views, but that's what they are ... differing views, and that's all fine.

It just reminds me too much of certain non-Hindu religions approach to us. "You guys are all wrong." they say, as if it is some fact.

(Added .. I see now you're declaring yourself wiser than Sankara ... well kind of ends this discussion.) Good luck in your attempt to change history.

[Mana Æ-Varyl]

It's all perspective, ADF is about "Indo"-European Polytheism. Their druids must be schooled heavily in one Indo-European Polytheist tradition as well as in the whole group more broadly. For them, dividing Indian spirituality into Vedic and Post-Vedic is convenient, for Indians it is completely arbitrary. This is all regardless of whether Indo-Aryans are native or migratory. Heck, some Slavic Pagan tribes and a few other European Polytheists believed in reincarnation, same for early Christianity and Gnosticism.

Personally, I've stopped caring about sticking to either Aryan or other beliefs. Maybe Kenotheism is right, maybe Hard-Polytheism is right. I will continue to believe in Slavic deities and in Saraswati. I don't know or even care about the afterlife, I'll get there when the time comes, until then, I will continue to study Dharma.

[Pleroma]

Originally Posted by Vinayaka

I pointed out AIT as one falsity in he article, because it was easily recognisable. The fact of the matter today is that 95% of Hindus worship Vishnu in many forms, Shiva in a couple of forms, Shakti, or any of the Smarta 6. To deny that means you've never been to India or inside any of the 800 temples here in the west.

However, the 'Vedic' Gods are still invoked. Just the other day at an annual temple festival, we re-established the boundary via 8 directions and Varuna, Yama, Vayu, etc. were all worshiped. Yes, in a smaller Vedic ceremony.

But to declare that 900 million + people are worshiping imaginary Gods isn't really helpful to anyone. Anyone, on their own, is welcome to have differing views, but that's what they are ... differing views, and that's all fine.

It just reminds me too much of certain non-Hindu religions approach to us. "You guys are all wrong." they say, as if it is some fact.

(Added .. I see now you're declaring yourself wiser than Sankara ... well kind of ends this discussion.) Good luck in your attempt to change history.

The thing what you are talking about is Brahmanism.

Brahmanism - the complex sacrificial religion that emerged in post-Vedic India ( circa 900 BC) under the influence of the dominant priesthood (Brahmans), an early stage in the development of Hinduism.

Brahmanism is not Vedism. Brahmanism corrupted the Vedas.

Of course they invoke the old gods but in what way? Do they give them the honor which they truly deserve or do they invoke them for namesake and pass them under the hood by placing their personally favored gods as supreme. No wonder why you Hindus cannot agree on anything because you guys do not know a damn about the Vedas and you guys have dishonored the old Vedic gods.

[Pleroma]

Originally Posted by Mana Æ-Varyl

It's all perspective, ADF is about "Indo"-European Polytheism. Their druids must be schooled heavily in one Indo-European Polytheist tradition as well as in the whole group more broadly. For them, dividing Indian spirituality into Vedic and Post-Vedic is convenient, for Indians it is completely arbitrary.

Its not about convenience, they are speaking the truth and I admire them for that.

[Mana Æ-Varyl]

Hindus don't need to agree on anything, Truth has many names. All beliefs are to be accepted and embraced as paths to the same goal. Nothing false about Vedic deities, nothing false about Shiva, Vishnu, Brahma, or the later role of Saraswati. Rivers and river deities became associated with knowledge because sages and seers flocked to them, both culture and spirituality were cultivated. Rivers certainly are significant both historically and spiritually. All that matters is that you make progress and dispel ignorance. I used to really dislike Christianity and even monotheism, that was base ignorance, it was the ignorant who call themselves Christians denouncing others and other ideas that was the problem and not Christian faith, spiritually, and devotion to God/Trinity. I really hope Paganism/Polytheism does not fall into the same zealotry that they themselves were once victim to.