The Bliss, Too, Will Pass

[WabiSabi]

Originally Posted by Gracey

I get what you are saying WabiSabi.

.....

Wow, yes. Okay.
Watch this and tell me if it strikes a chord with you. https://youtu.be/JyqBnd3Xwck

[H:O:R:A:C:E]

Gracey: And there you have the whole purpose of existence…..BE HAPPY!

follow your bliss ~ Joseph Campbell

Yes, I have had those same thought theories before WabiSabi.

Originally Posted by H:O:R:A:C:E

follow your bliss ~ Joseph Campbell

..........

[wolfgaze]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

The ego is just as real, and just as much Source as everything else.

Okay, but how does one reconcile the above notion with:

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

However, that emotion/experience is not from Source, but from the ego.

?

You:

-Love/Bliss is from Ego
-Ego is also Source as is everything else
-Love/Bliss is not from Source, but from Ego
_________________________________________


Does this not seem incompatible and logically inconsistent?

Let me tell you where I differ with what you have proposed...

Authentic unconditional love & bliss is experienced by me as a deep sense of connectedness with either another 'being' or with the Universe as a whole... When I feel unconditional love for someone it's because I experience this deep feeling of connectedness with that individual - there is a sense of unity and no (or extremely little) separation.

The egoic mind thrives on separateness - it promotes separateness and division... The egoic mind must maintain the illusion of separateness in order to maintain its identity and its controlling influence over your state of Consciousness. It is not designd to comprehend the higher truth that is the unity of all beings and the interconnectedness of all that is.

So you see, when I am feeling unconditional love for another - it is rooted in a deep sense of connectedness and therefore an absence of separateness... The egoic mind is not capable of this as it yields only conditional 'love' that is governed by attachment, neediness, possessiveness, and concern for 'self'.... Unconditional love is selfless... I cannot generate such feelings of unconditional love & bliss by utilizing and exercising my physical/egoic mind. Instead, I have to tap into and connect with a state of heightened Awareness - and this is what generates that sense of connectedness and freedom from the limiting influence of the physical body & mind...

Maybe I interpreted my experience differently than you did yours, but when liberation arrived - it came through consciously progressing to the life-changing epiphany/realization that my 'old self' (egoic identity) had 'died' (been risen above, transcended) - and this immediately thrust me into a state of Awareness where I now fully realized my true nature/identity/self that exists above and independent of the physical/egoic identity... As soon as this happened I was flooded with indescribable feelings of bliss, joy, unconditional love, connectedness to the Univese (Source) - which permeated through all of my being... The rapturous feelings lasted several days and then very gradually tapered off, but I was forever changed from this point forward. I do not perceive such feelings of love/bliss/joy originated from the egoic mind because they only surfaced when I fully integrated an Awareness of my existence or 'self' beyond the influence of the egoic mind. This is why I do not feel what you communicated is accurate regarding that specific part of your post. The egoic mind does not yield the feelings you referenced.

There are many accounts of individuals having Near-Death Experiences. Upon leaving their physical body (OBE), many find themselves having an encounter with and being immersed by the white light and they describe the feeling of interacting with and being immersed in this light as one of incredible and pure unconditional love, acceptance, wholeness, etc... In this context, the Consciousness or Soul has detached from the physical body (which houses the brain and therefore the egoic mind). Therefore one could not suggest that this feeling of unconditional love/bliss/acceptance in this context and state of being is generated by that aspect (egoic mind). I will submit to you that such a feeling reported during these NDE's parallels that which is experienced during 'liberation'.

[Imzadi]

@ WabiSabi,

I totally know what you mean and appreciate the wisdom, and at the same time I think there is a bit of semantics sometimes when we use the word "bliss". Most of the times the word is used to described pleasure that is conditional, fleeting, temporal, and material. There is also a great sense of "bliss" when one actualizes his or her own Divine Equanimity, Oneness, and Spaciousness, etc. etc. This "bliss" shall we say, is not so much as the orgasmic altered state of consciousness that I described in my earlier post, but more so the realization of Oneself in Its Divine Glory. I think a more suitable description of that particular "bliss" would be Profound PEACE, Unconditional LOVE (or rather the recognition of Oneself as the Unconditional LOVE itself), JOY, and Understanding because at that very level, those are the reality. So at that level of Awakening, one would feel a perpetual Divine LOVE that has no opposites. To call it bliss would do it injustice because it is something that can never be described conceptually or put into words. Unconditional LOVE/SOURCE is the Space/Void/Silence that encompasses everything and allows for ALL else to exist. So I like to imagine when Beings Awaken to the infinity that they are, they would feel something to what people would describe as "bliss" but oh it's so much more than that! It's not a feeling... It's WHO WE ARE; LOVE/SOURCE/ONENESS/INFINITY. And yet still those are feeble human words and concepts that does not quite serve the reality and magnitude. :)

Site Note: In a nutshell, true "BLISS" is NOT an altered state of consciousness, feeling, or even an experience. It is a state of PURE BEING and It is also simply Divinity Remembering Itself and doing Its THING and getting jiggy with IT. ^_~

[WabiSabi]

Originally Posted by wolfgaze

Okay, how does one reconcile the above notion with:



You:

-Love/Bliss is from Ego
-Ego is also Source as is everything else
-Love/Bliss is not from Source, but from Ego

Does this not seem incompatible and logically inconsistent?

Let me tell you where I differ with what you have proposed...

Authentic unconditional love & bliss is expereinced by me as a deep sense of connectedness with either another 'being' or with the Universe as a whole... When I feel unconditional love for someone it's because I experience this deep feeling of connectedness with that individual - there is a sense of unity and no (or extremely little) separation.

The egoic mind thrives on separateness, it promotes separateness and division... The egoic mind must maintain the illusion of separateness in order to maintain its identity and influence over your state of Consciousness. It is not designd to comprehend the higher truth that is the unity of all beings and the interconnectedness of all that is.

So you see, when I am feeling unconditional love for another - it is rooted in deep connectedness and therefore a lack of separateness... The egoic mind is not capable of this as it yields only the conditional 'love' that is ruled by attachment, neediness, possessiveness, and concern for 'self'.... Unconditional love is selfless...

Maybe I interpreted my experience differently than you did yours, but when liberation arrived - it came through consciously progressing to the life-changing epiphany/realization that my 'old self' (egoic identity) had 'died' (been risen above) - and this immediately thrust me into a state of Awareness where I now fully realized my true nature/identity/self that exists above and independent of the egoic identity... As soon as this happened I was flooded with indescribable feelings of bliss, joy, unconditional love, connectedness to the Univese (Source) - which permeated through all of my being... The rapturous feelings lasted several days and then gradually tapered off, but I was forever changed from this. I do not perceive such feelings originated from the egoic mind because they only surfaced when I fully integrated an Awareness of my existence or 'self' beyond the influence of the egoic mind. This is why I do not feel what you communicated is accurate regarding that specific part of your post. The egoic mind does not yield the feelings you referenced.

There are countless accounts of individuals having Near-Death Experiences. Upon leaving their physical body (OBE), many find themselves having an encounter with and being immersed by the white light and they describe the feeling of interacting with and being immersed in this light as one of supreme unconditional love, acceptance, wholeness, etc... In this context, the Consciousness or Soul has detached from the physical body (which houses the brain and therefore the egoic mind). Therefore one could not suggest that this feeling of unconditional love/bliss/acceptance in this context and state of is being is generated by that aspect (egoic mind). I will submit to you that such a feeling reported during these NDE's parallels that which is experienced during 'liberation'.

There is no line between ego and not-ego. Ego is on a spectrum, just like everything else. The closer you are to Source, the more you move away from material existence and the ego that comes with it. But even as the larger ego dies, there is still a far subtler ego. That bliss and joy is the ego's interpretation of the experience of connectedness.

The only way to truly experience the neutrality of Source is to completely lose your ego, which you cannot do if you are alive, not completely. But you can come close, by drug experiences, NDEs (during a NDE, you are not completely separate from your body, but your perspective is moving away from it), or very, very deep meditation. The highest Jhanas in this list are very close to completely losing the ego, and one does not feel love or any other emotion at that level of meditation.(http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=9_Jhanas).

Think of it this way... if the foundation of existence was really love, then why would life take on this form that self-sustains by self-consumption?

[wolfgaze]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

But even as the larger ego dies, there is still a far subtler ego.

Agree (bolded)... The difference now is what you Consciously identify with as your highest source of 'self'... You can still experience subtle ego while no longer mistaking it for your highest identity/nature/essence...

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

That bliss and joy is the ego's interpretation of the experience of connectedness.

Respectfully disagree...

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

The only way to truly experience the neutrality of Source is to completely lose your ego, which you cannot do if you are alive, not completely. But you can come close, by drug experiences, NDEs (during a NDE, you are not completely separate from your body, but your perspective is moving away from it), or very, very deep meditation. The highest Jhanas in this list are very close to completely losing the ego, and one does not feel love or any other emotion at that level of meditation.(http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=9_Jhanas).

Who 'here' (remaining in physical embodiment) can testify to the actual nature of the conscious experience of complete unification with Source (which we agree cannot happen while physically alive)? What does neutrality mean to you? No discerning feeling or experience of anything?

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

Think of it this way... if the foundation of existence was really love, then why would life take on this form that self-sustains by self-consumption?

Well you are using the term 'love' here which is frequently associated with a range of varying conscious experiences/feelings... (i.e. I fell in love, I fell out of love, I love pizza, I love my car)... That term is often used to express egoic attachment to something...

I would offer that the foundation of existence could likely be wholeness and connectedness...

As to why 'life' would take on this form that we experience in this dimension? That is largely a mystery that we are unable to definitively solve from this unique vantage point we are experiencing, right? Perhaps Source intends to create the experience of all possibilities and to experience all reference points - and to do this it must decend into divisions, fragmentations, and temporary states which create the perception of separateness and forgetting its wholeness/connectedness... Perhaps the Source is exploring itself or evolving itself through creating experiences? I'll be the first to tell you that I don't know the answer to this mystery and I'm not convinced that anyone else can know right now or does know - not from this vantage point.... Regarding the notion of 'self-consumpton' - only the temporary physical forms are being consumed - not the underlying Energy that gives life to those forms. Would Source be threatened by this consumption? If Source desires to thrust itself into temporary physical embodiment in this dimension - then there must be some design or mechanism by which this temporary existence 'here' brings about an end to that experience (this comes in the form of these physical forms 'dying', which is no threat to Source)...

[Floatsy]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

The Universe, Source, Spirit, Soul, God, or whatever you may call it, is completely neutral.
It is not associated with any emotion or experience or thought.
In fact, not only is it neutral, it MUST be neutral, as it experiences both sides of any interaction.

When someone loves someone else, Source experiences both the loving and being loved.
When someone murders someone else, Source experiences both the murdering and the being murdered.
When you eat a cow, Source experiences both the eating and the being eaten.

This is why an individual who has experienced Truth may have a hard time eating meat, as they realize deep within that although they may be experiencing eating this time around, at some other time they will experience being eaten.
An unsettling thought to say the least.

So now, if when you delve deep into Source, into Spirit, into Soul, all you experience is endless love or bliss or freedom, that is wonderful!
That means that liberation is near at hand.
However, that emotion/experience is not from Source, but from the ego.
It is the last vestiges of attachment left to be experienced.
If you experience love, then you are a loving person!
However, to truly attain enlightenment, you must release ALL attachments, even to love.

As many a mystic has said, "this too shall pass."

Respectfully, I find your posts lacking true insight and depth.
It has little bits here and there which might sound true, but lacking in the depth of the Truth and the totality of the Truth.

[Floatsy]

Originally Posted by WabiSabi

There is no line between ego and not-ego. Ego is on a spectrum, just like everything else. The closer you are to Source, the more you move away from material existence and the ego that comes with it. But even as the larger ego dies, there is still a far subtler ego. That bliss and joy is the ego's interpretation of the experience of connectedness.

The only way to truly experience the neutrality of Source is to completely lose your ego, which you cannot do if you are alive, not completely. But you can come close, by drug experiences, NDEs (during a NDE, you are not completely separate from your body, but your perspective is moving away from it), or very, very deep meditation. The highest Jhanas in this list are very close to completely losing the ego, and one does not feel love or any other emotion at that level of meditation.(http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=9_Jhanas).

Think of it this way... if the foundation of existence was really love, then why would life take on this form that self-sustains by self-consumption?

I'm afraid your understanding is becoming even more confused through your posts.

If you lose your ego, you will die, or you cannot achieve this full loss of ego until death or through drugs?

Perhaps we are utilizing different definitions, but "ego" once defined and manifested wholly, fully and truly by that which cannot be known, is reborn anew and made manifest as the vehicle of Truth, or Dharma.

Have you considered that you are personalizing ego and differentiating what is not needed.

I think you are deluded to a degree, like most of the people - at least I speak for myself - and it would further you to study under a real master. :)

As to your experiences, I'm sure that many of us have had many experiences - and revelations, it's no big deal really but for you to present your theories as Truth seems a bit odd to me tbh...

Well wishes.