Suffering

Greetings..

Originally Posted by sound

Wonderful post/message (#12) Tzu ... lots of little jewels in there for the taking ... very inspiring ... very nice to see you back in town too

Thank you Ms. Kate.. it's good to be back, the forum is still a decent place to share understandings, and enjoy the company of friends like you and others..

Be well..

Greetings..

Originally Posted by IsleWalker

Again, suffering is not mandatory! Many are learning "lessons" (sorry Tzu) without suffering. Those are our choices, again. (And before you say it--no, they may not be consciously made.)

Lora

Hi Lora: My understanding of 'suffering' may be different from yours.. pain, misfortune, and undesirable situations are inevitable, and 'suffering' is optional.. i see 'suffering' as attaching to the pain, misfortune, and undesirable situations because, in some way, those conditions have a pay-off for the 'sufferer'.. yes, there are many millions of people experiencing those conditions without relief or respite, and i sense that the appropriate 'word', rather than 'suffering', is that some people 'endure' what others 'suffer'..

You may have noticed, and rightfully so by some standards, that i have an irrationally exuberant optimism regarding the human capacity for altering 'consequences', for making surprising choices to override conditioning and beliefs.. when the humans see/experience Life as it 'is', when they have direct experiences and clarity, my experiences indicate they will act in a manner consistent with advancing the human experience in a more harmonious and holistic direction..

In your post you suggest that "they [choices] may not be consciously made", which by my understanding, is not a 'choice'.. but, i am curious about the wording and your understandings, are you suggesting that "may not" is a barrier, or that their are other sources for our 'choices'?

Be well..

[IsleWalker]

Tzu--

I try to keep things simple-KISS, you know. I was trying to say, depending on the person/soul/soul group, some may be able to learn without what are considered deprivation, pain (suffering or undue suffering). For others, there is a purpose to that suffering if it leads them to the soul learning they desire. I can't know the details of anyone else's Plan and I'm not judging by these statements.

What I said about choice is that we may not always be consciously aware of making the choices about how our lives go, who is in them, what circumstances come about, what we are trying to accomplish, or whether there is "suffering". That's all I meant.

Lora

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Xan

"No one would search for the Truth without suffering." So it does serve that purpose...

Xan

Hi Xan .

I again generally agreed with your thoughts that were of the whole post ..

In regards to the above statement yet again I resonate with it although I would say suffering is endured without one being conscious of such . I would say that one needs to experience what it is like to no longer suffer to know that one has always been .


x daz x

Originally Posted by God-Like

Hi Xan .

I again generally agreed with your thoughts that were of the whole post ..

In regards to the above statement yet again I resonate with it although I would say suffering is endured without one being conscious of such . I would say that one needs to experience what it is like to no longer suffer to know that one has always been .


x daz x

Hi GL: If one is not conscious of suffering, one is not suffering.. in the same way that searching for truth is not predicated upon suffering.. the choice is made, sometimes from suffering, sometimes from simple curiosity.. if one needs suffering as a motive, it does not apply that 'all' need suffering as a motive..

Be well..

[Xan]

Originally Posted by God-Like

"No one would search for the Truth without suffering." So it does serve that purpose...

In regards to the above statement yet again I resonate with it although I would say suffering is endured without one being conscious of such . I would say that one needs to experience what it is like to no longer suffer to know that one has always been .


x daz x

Yes, much suffering is unconscious and we may not recognize suffering for what it is until it stops... or until we discover who we are that never suffers. Only then does the contrast become apparent.


Xan

Greetings..

To assert that suffering is unconscious, and that there is a remedy for the suffering that the alleged sufferer isn't aware of, sounds suspiciously like creating a problem/demand in order to market a remedy/supply..

If i am not experiencing suffering, i am not suffering, and.. if someone else tries to convince me that their concept of suffering means that i am suffering, it seems that they are the cause of the suffering that wasn't there before their efforts to project their beliefs onto others..

For someone else to claim that i am suffering but that i don't know it, seems much more likely that the someone else is more attached to attaining their desired result, than having a discussion and understanding the perspectives of those they claim are suffering but don't know it.. it is entirely possible and equally likely that those claiming that others suffer but don't know it, are actually observing their own suffering as it is revealed by the absence of suffering in others.. as the old saying goes: "misery loves company"..

Be well..

Originally Posted by TzuJanLi

Greetings..
If i am not experiencing suffering, i am not suffering, and.. if someone else tries to convince me that their concept of suffering means that i am suffering, it seems that they are the cause of the suffering that wasn't there before their efforts to project their beliefs onto others..
Be well..

Regarding this aspect...of the topic

All of us carry burdens that we've become accustomed to, yet weigh on on our souls.
The addict, alcoholic, lost in dilerium, who denies his pain.
The abuser who inflicts pain on others without understanding how it injures him.
Any habitual self-destructive behavior that we deny, refuse to acknowledge.

It could be said we aren't aware of, or deny our pain, or said we don't experience suffering. Both are true,,
Yet suffer we do, all the same... till circumstances (hitting bottom) or someone makes us fully aware of it.

So it seems to me.

The initial topic is beyond my personal understanding ...... being born into desperate poverty, illness, tyranny .... but others have offered their understanding- rationalizations ... that we assume to be true... I can't say personally. Not having experienced this.

Greetings..

Originally Posted by Henri77

Regarding this aspect...of the topic

All of us carry burdens that we've become accustomed to, yet weigh on on our souls.
The addict, alcoholic, lost in dilerium, who denies his pain.
The abuser who inflicts pain on others without understanding how it injures him.
Any habitual self-destructive behavior that we deny, refuse to acknowledge.

It could be said we aren't aware of, or deny our pain, or said we don't experience suffering. Both are true,,
Yet suffer we do, all the same... till circumstances (hitting bottom) or someone makes us fully aware of it.

So it seems to me.

The initial topic is beyond my personal understanding ...... being born into desperate poverty, illness, tyranny .... but others have offered their understanding- rationalizations ... that we assume to be true... I can't say personally. Not having experienced this.

We each write our own stories, and.. at some level, if we are suffering we 'know' it.. there are those that will create an imaginary existence, then try to convince others they are suffering if they don't play the imaginary roles..

Be well..

[Michelle11]

I heard a really good quote about this a little while back. Pain is of the body but suffering is of the mind. So in my mind pain and illness occur to give us the opportunity to learn how to overcome suffering of the mind though I am sure there are other lessons as well. I believe if we are born with an illness we chose to learn a lesson from that illness in particular. Some illnesses we are born with actually wind up being blessings in disguise. I have had a few of those. If we however develop an illness as a consequence of our lifestyle then we endure pain as a way to learn how to live healthier. But the point being any sort of pain or illness is really an opportunity to learn a lesson about moving from negative unhealthy thinking and behaving to living from love. So I would say if you come across someone who is really mired down with heavy physical issues congratulate them on taking on such a challenging life. Well maybe not congratulate because they would probably look at you like you were insane but the point being they have really made an effort to not sit idle this life and really try to make some progress.