Observer vs Observed

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Good luck with that mind game.

You know its people like you that are one of the largest contributing factors as to why this world is in the **** show that it's in because people like you don't care about the truth you only care about validating the concepts and beliefs that you already have and when someone proves your beliefs to be wrong you just turn a blind eye to it and continue to try to find validation and ego stroking wherever you can find it. So long as you feel like you have reached a level that others look up to and especially if people like you gather a fallowing then it doesn't matter what happens to the world so long as your feelings "special " you'll continue to hock whatever crapy beliefs keep you in your happy little bubble . Heaven forbid you have to humble yourself and acknowledge that you were wrong about something. And all this time people like you hold up the "for truth " sign and pretend like you're open minded and humble and willing to learn yet it would be easier to get a donkey to do what you want just by asking it. So disappointing.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The point of non-duality teachings is to combine the metaphor/analogy mental concept of duality together with the metaphor/analogy mental concept of non-duality, not to view duality as unreal or as an illusion, viewing duality as unreal or as an illusion is a mental metaphor/analogy concept that creates it as an illusion and creates ignorance.

Each metaphor in and of itself is complete. There isn't one metaphor for duality and another for non-duality.

Ocean and waves, clay and pots, gold and ornaments. The prior term represents non-duality and its characteristics are One and possessing inherent existence, whereas the latter represents duality and its characteristics are many and its existence borrowed from/dependent on the prior. The prior can exist without the latter but the latter cannot exist without the prior. Brahman's existence is not dependent on the multiplicity but the multiplicity's existence is dependent on Brahman.

That's what it's getting at with "real" and "unreal". That which has inherent existence is "real" and that which has borrowed existence is "unreal" in the sense it's impermanent. That is all. It's not a use of "unreal" or "illusion" in a literal sense. It's only a method of teaching to help wrap one's mind around the concept being conveyed.

Just saying there is only Brahman simply isn't an effective method to enable one to understand what's being taught and saying one can come to that realization simply by power of intellect and suppressing falsity and embracing truth isn't only ineffective but goes against methods of meditative practice which are important and effective non-duality practices.

To be honest I'm thinking this discussion is doing more harm than good as evidenced by your frustration and I'd suggest once again perhaps a wiser approach is to explore the source and reason for that frustration and not via intellect, logic, reasoning. That's where Truth will reveal Itself.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Each metaphor in and of itself is complete. There isn't one metaphor for duality and another for non-duality.

Ocean and waves, clay and pots, gold and ornaments. The prior term represents non-duality and its characteristics are One and possessing inherent existence, whereas the latter represents duality and its characteristics are many and its existence borrowed from/dependent on the prior. The prior can exist without the latter but the latter cannot exist without the prior. Brahman's existence is not dependent on the multiplicity but the multiplicity's existence is dependent on Brahman.

That's what it's getting at with "real" and "unreal". That which has inherent existence is "real" and that which has borrowed existence is "unreal" in the sense it's impermanent. That is all. It's not a use of "unreal" or "illusion" in a literal sense. It's only a method of teaching to help wrap one's mind around the concept being conveyed.

Just saying there is only Brahman simply isn't an effective method to enable one to understand what's being taught and saying one can come to that realization simply by power of intellect and suppressing falsity and embracing truth isn't only ineffective but goes against methods of meditative practice which are important and effective non-duality practices.

To be honest I'm thinking this discussion is doing more harm than good as evidenced by your frustration and I'd suggest once again perhaps a wiser approach is to explore the source and reason for that frustration and not via intellect, logic, reasoning. That's where truth will reveal itself.

I get it, you like living with your head buried in the sand and clouds with all your subjective metaphores/analogies "realities".

Separating the metaphors metaphores/analogies mental concepts of duality from non-duality is a total and complete contradiction. And my post went in one ear and out the other, as usual.

You demanded me to use logic, and reason a few posts back, now you say logic and reason is not the way to go. It is contradiction after contradiction with you. Is this just a game to you and do I have to put you on my ignore list again?

The problem is that I am not frustrated. You keep saying/presuming that I am frustrated, why is that? Are you projecting yourself onto me again, by you saying that I am frustrated, when I am not frustrated? The problem is you keep deflecting and going round and round in circles because your subjective metaphores/analogies "realities" prevent you from learning truth.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I get it, you like living with your head buried in the sand and clouds with all your subjective metaphores/analogies "realities".

Separating the metaphors metaphores/analogies mental concepts of duality from non-duality is a total and complete contradiction. And my post went in one ear and out the other, as usual.

You demanded me to use logic, and reason a few posts back, now you say logic and reason is not the way to go. It is contradiction after contradiction with you. Is this just a game to you and do I have to put you on my ignore list again?

The problem is that I am not frustrated. You keep saying/presuming that I am frustrated, why is that? Are you projecting yourself onto me again, by you saying that I am frustrated, when I am not frustrated? The problem is you keep deflecting and going round and round in circles because your subjective metaphores/analogies "realities" prevent you from learning truth.

Only truth is unchanging, infinite, eternal, and indivisible, and all-pervading, Everything that is not truth changes and is finite.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Each metaphor in and of itself is complete. There isn't one metaphor for duality and another for non-duality.

Ocean and waves, clay and pots, gold and ornaments. The prior term represents non-duality and its characteristics are One and possessing inherent existence, whereas the latter represents duality and its characteristics are many and its existence borrowed from/dependent on the prior. The prior can exist without the latter but the latter cannot exist without the prior. Brahman's existence is not dependent on the multiplicity but the multiplicity's existence is dependent on Brahman.

That's what it's getting at with "real" and "unreal". That which has inherent existence is "real" and that which has borrowed existence is "unreal" in the sense it's impermanent. That is all. It's not a use of "unreal" or "illusion" in a literal sense. It's only a method of teaching to help wrap one's mind around the concept being conveyed.

Just saying there is only Brahman simply isn't an effective method to enable one to understand what's being taught and saying one can come to that realization simply by power of intellect and suppressing falsity and embracing truth isn't only ineffective but goes against methods of meditative practice which are important and effective non-duality practices.

To be honest I'm thinking this discussion is doing more harm than good as evidenced by your frustration and I'd suggest once again perhaps a wiser approach is to explore the source and reason for that frustration and not via intellect, logic, reasoning. That's where Truth will reveal Itself.

If you want to discuss only truth with me and be truthfull, I will be right here, Otherwise, I will be having truthful and constructive discussions with other people.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

To be honest I'm thinking this discussion is doing more harm than good as evidenced by your frustration and I'd suggest once again perhaps a wiser approach is to explore the source and reason for that frustration and not via intellect, logic, reasoning. That's where Truth will reveal Itself.

Since you mentioned the Yoga Sūtras of Patañjali in a previous reply this is worth watching and what I'm speaking to in that last part of my previous reply.

https://youtu.be/IocVfGW40gM?t=1593

"The idea represented in the Patañjali Yoga Sūtras is the only thing that keeps us from enlightenment, the only thing that prevents you or me from being a Buddha is, that we cannot meditate like a Buddha. Our minds are distracted. If you could calm the mind down, then you'll be enlightened".

"The third sūtra of the Patañjali Yoga Sūtras says at that point the Witness within is revealed in its true nature".



Thinking won't get you there. Not thinking will.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I gave you 3 chances to answer the honest question and you avoided answering the honest question 3 times.

You are ignored for good.

Good luck denying and ignoring your ego-I mind or intellect, so you are able to ignorantly talk against your ego-I/mind or intellect and other people's ego-I/mind or intellect.

I haven't followed the thread closely Mike, but non duality seems to create extreme issues when debating .

It's actually quite ironic to see 'one' arguing with 'one' and 'one' putting 'one down per se .

Of course then there is the illusory 'one' and the real 'one' that comes to the fore, or that there is an illusory 'one' that speaks the truth lol .

I had the same issue on another thread where many could not even answer straightforward questions that relate to their actual belief that they hold tightly .

I think it's common behaviour tbh ..

Again, I haven't followed the thread closely and I am not throwing stones, I was just drawn to say what I have ..

I always ask peeps to look at why they can't answer questions about their own premises . If they simply don't know the answers that's fair enough, but to put other's down while totally ignoring the questions beggars belief .


x daz x

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by God-Like

I haven't followed the thread closely Mike, but non duality seems to create extreme issues when debating .

It's actually quite ironic to see 'one' arguing with 'one' and 'one' putting 'one down per se .

Of course then there is the illusory 'one' and the real 'one' that comes to the fore, or that there is an illusory 'one' that speaks the truth lol .

I had the same issue on another thread where many could not even answer straightforward questions that relate to their actual belief that they hold tightly .

I think it's common behaviour tbh ..

Again, I haven't followed the thread closely and I am not throwing stones, I was just drawn to say what I have ..

I always ask peeps to look at why they can't answer questions about their own premises . If they simply don't know the answers that's fair enough, but to put other's down while totally ignoring the questions beggars belief .


x daz x

It is what it is, I am over it. Conflicts and contradictions arise when people literally believe in metaphors and/or analogies, which causes that person to literaly "know" said metaphor and/or analogy and is part of mental and emotional conditioning. This creates conflicts and contradictions all on it's own.

It being common behavior, is exactly why the world is the way it is.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Since you mentioned the Yoga Sūtras of Patañjali in a previous reply this is worth watching and what I'm speaking to in that last part of my previous reply.

https://youtu.be/IocVfGW40gM?t=1593

"The idea represented in the Patañjali Yoga Sūtras is the only thing that keeps us from enlightenment, the only thing that prevents you or me from being a Buddha is, that we cannot meditate like a Buddha. Our minds are distracted. If you could calm the mind down, then you'll be enlightened".

"The third sūtra of the Patañjali Yoga Sūtras says at that point the Witness within is revealed in its true nature".



Thinking won't get you there. Not thinking will.

The key word above is idea, an idea is a metaphor, analogy and/or mental concept.

Not thinking and literally believing in, thus "knowing" subjective analogies and metaphors, which are mental concepts that are wide open for misunderstanding will get you there. In other words transcend all ideas or mental concepts and beliefs that are a metaphor, analogy and/or mental concept. And you do that by putting the idea or mental metaphor, analogy mental concepts of duality together with non-duality and vice versa. Separating and dividing the 2 is an idea or mental metaphor, analogy concept

Originally Posted by MikeS80

The key word above is idea, an idea is a metaphor, analogy and/or mental concept. Not thinking and believing in subjective analogies and metaphors, which are mental concepts that are wide open for misunderstanding will get you there. In other words transcend all ideas or mental concepts that are a metaphor, analogy and/or mental concepts.

So you find wisdom in the Patañjali Yoga Sūtras until you don't?

I'll remind you their purpose is to quiet the mind and in doing so Truth is revealed. In other words not only is Truth not a product of mind, but mind hides Truth.