The Matrix films

Originally Posted by DirtyMagicalAly

I'm so excited that I can finally post here! :lol:

:thumbrig: And we're delighted to see you here at last!!!! :thumblef:

I have become a little Matrix geek since the other thread like this! heehe

Join the geeks club!! :lol: We have fun!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

(And have finally got my hands on the animatrix collection which I plan to watch asap!)

My aim is to rewatch the Matrix films and intersperse the Animatrix in the order that Spacey suggests:

[quote]Viewed in some sort of order then, we have a list of what needs to be seen, in the interest of getting the most out of the complete story arc: 1.) The Second Renaissance, parts I & II (from The Animatrix), 2.) The Matrix (the film), 3.) Final Flight of the Osiris (from The Animatrix), 4.) Beyond (from The Animatrix), 5.) Kid

[quote=DirtyMagicalAly][I

[quote=Space_Man][quote=Poppies]The conversation about the candy grabbed my attention. It brought to mind a post that Sashwah made on the Free-Will, Choice and Pre-Destination thread (it

[quote=Space_Man]The Second Renaissance, Parts 1 & 2 will especially fill-in a lot of meaningful background on the story

[quote=DirtyMagicalAly]

I've tried to catch-up on this thread. ... but it's just too packed full of information for my brain to download..... somewhere I seem to remember you asked about Hinduism Spaceman? and I think Poppies mentioned reincarnation and how it could fit into the Matrix? Apologies if this is a bit of a tangent ;-)

'Hinduism' doesn't really exist which is a good start :-)
It's a name which Muslim invaders gave to people in India who weren't Muslim, Christian or Buddhist. It started off as 'people of the Indus river region', and over the years got shortened to 'H-Indus', then at some stage it became such a well known phrase that even 'Hindus' started using the term themselves. The problem is that within India there is as much diversity of religious belief as you'd find in the rest of the world, maybe even more so? Virtually every single beleif has been followed there by some sect or tradition at some time so it's impossible to really lump it all together.

The common thread amongst them are the Vedic scriptures - these are from an ancient tradition (many 1000's BC) and were passed down orally from guru to disciple in the form of Sanskrit poems. They cover everything from Cow Dung to Military Arts, to Science, Philosophy, and most importantly the Nature of the Soul & God. At some stage it was decided, 'hey maybe someone should write all this down incase it gets lost, or we forget it?'. So the story goes that a great sage called Vyasadeva wrote them all onto paper and then went off into the Himalayas. But after he finished he was still a little bit 'unhappy' that all these volumes had been written (it would take a lifetime to read them) but the essence might be missed out. So he then wrote the 'Bhagavata-Purana' which is a summary study of all the highest philosophy and information specifically regarding the Soul & God (Krishna), and the pastimes of God in His personal incarnations as Krishna, Rama, Balarama, Vishnu etc...and His empowered incarnations as Buddha etc...

So how does this apply to the Matrix? Well I'm sure it does in some way;-) lol .... The idea of Neo being like 'an avatar' or at least an empowered 'avatar' who gets reincarnated time after time might originate from the concept of avatar in the Bhagavata-Purana?

For example when Krishna spoke the Bhagavad-Gita to Arjuna, he says at one point:

BG 4.4: Arjuna said: The demi-god Vivasvan is senior by birth to You. How am I to understand that in the beginning You instructed this science to him?

BG 4.5: The Personality of Godhead said: Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!

BG 4.6: Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all living entities, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

BG 4.7: Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion -- at that time I descend Myself.

BG 4.8: To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium.

BG 4.9: One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.

BG 4.10: Being freed from attachment, fear and anger, being fully absorbed in Me and taking refuge in Me, many, many persons in the past became purified by knowledge of Me -- and thus they all attained transcendental love for Me.

So Neo could like Arjuna, each time Krishna descends the same souls come with Him, but they don't neccessarily know it (like Neo). But then Morpheus would be Krishna because He is teaching Neo, but not taking the credit himself - which is similar to Krishna's style. ;-) ??

The Matrix is like Maya (illusion), as well-described in an earlier post, which is detailed in many of the Vedas. The Oracle is similar to the transcendental spaceman/sage from the Vedas called 'Narada-Muni' because he's always 'stirring things up' in a spiritual way like she does in the film..... and giving gems of wisdom. Not sure where the architect could fit in? I can only really remember the first film.

A few thoughts to chew on anyway..... :-)

Gouranga,

Das :-)

DASA

Wow! Thanks Das! That should keep us going for a while!!!! :lol:
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Aly

Originally Posted by Aly

And please please please, call me Aly...much easier, and much nicer! lol

Aly it is then!!!! I was going to ask you about shortening your name but you got there first!! :lol:

Originally Posted by Aly

Poppies: I can definitely agree with what ur saying, about the re-incarnation aspect...but again, to my mind it opens up the question of how powerful, really, was the Oracle in her role as Oracle? Like what I put to Space_Man, does she simply know the choices have been made, and baguely knows what they are likely to be...or does she see the future?

I'm not 'set-in-concrete' on anything here... but I do wonder if the re-incarnation aspect is something that we simply have to accept..... so she knows his choice because that's how it is with re-incarnation - and, as 'God'/Neo's 'mother', she was aware of the choices he had made then....

Brian Takle has this to say about The Oracle predicting Neo's behaviour...

Originally Posted by Takle

I suggested that the Oracle may be able to truly predict Neo's behavior. She "birthed" the Neo routine into the Matrix. It is her special child (and perhaps by extension Neo is her child). The Architect doesn't understand it (or Neo). He merely knows the parameters of how it is supposed to function. But if the Oracle gifted growth to the Matrix, then she must understand it (even if she herself cannot do it).

I've copied the following section from the Reloaded essay... I know it's long, but I wondered if it would help clarify things a bit.....

Originally Posted by Takle

The Oracle
ARCHITECT: If I am the Father of the Matrix, then she would undoubtedly be its Mother.

NEO: The Oracle.

Those two lines sum up a tremendous amount of the story. But what exactly is the Oracle the mother of? The Architect designed an essentially "perfect" Matrix in versions 1.0 and 2.0, and both failed. He describes how the answer came from an intuitive program (i.e., the Oracle) -- the part she contributed that he could not was the Neo factor...............

I made a quick reference to Kali a while back. She is the goddess of both birth and death -- that is, she brings death-and-rebirth to the universe. This illuminates the flaw in Architect's previous Matrices, defines who the Oracle is, and reveals precisely the limit of the machines' intelligence (and why the Architect cannot entirely predict Neo's behavior; perhaps the Oracle actually can, though). The cycle of death-and-rebirth is equivalent to GROWTH. We can apply that truth to basic physical existence, the death and consumption of another to yield bodily growth[5]. We can also take that as a spiritual metaphor. That is, there is no spiritual growth (i.e., becoming fully human and entering the Middle Kingdom) without death and rebirth.

The reason the previous Matrices failed was that there was no way for the humans to grow, a need so fundamental that no one would accept the world they were given. Agent Smith, in the first movie, tells the truth when he says "humans define their world through suffering." Death must come before rebirth. How many times has that progression been shown in these movies so far? This is absolutely central to the theme. Smith's recognition of it is portentous.

The fact that the Architect designed two entire Matrices without the capacity for human growth indicates that the machines have little comprehension of growth. In fact, they can't grow; they strive instead for static perfection. The only way they have "grown" so far is in response to human actions. The Oracle knows this, which is why she says "the only way forward is together" [paraphrased]. She knows that the machines will stagnate without humans to lead them forward.

So the Oracle is Kali. She brings death and misery to the world, but also renewal. The Oracle could have prevented a lot of suffering by equipping everyone with better foreknowledge. But if she had done so, none of the main characters would have grown -- especially, Neo would not have become The One. This is why she says to Neo "you have to decide for yourself if I'm for you or against you" [paraphrasing again]. And it really is not clear, although it seems like in the long run she is pro-human.

I suggested that the Oracle may be able to truly predict Neo's behavior. She "birthed" the Neo routine into the Matrix. It is her special child (and perhaps by extension Neo is her child). The Architect doesn't understand it (or Neo). He merely knows the parameters of how it is supposed to function. But if the Oracle gifted growth to the Matrix, then she must understand it (even if she herself cannot do it). To wit, you cannot grow and remain static at the same time. The Architect thinks the Neo routine is a method for maintaining a static system, but it cannot be. Each time the routine runs, the death-and-rebirth cycle repeats, and all of humanity grows up a little more, expressed specifically as Neo. By its very nature, by its will to grow, humanity will reject this Matrix too.

I think there is something special with this "The One" business. The Architect and the Merovingian talk about predecessors and previous versions of "Neo." I suspect that each time around he (or she!) was a little more powerful, although it might have been unexpressed or undetectable to the machines. We have plenty of Buddhist/Hindu reincarnation clues in these movies, and we can say that each incarnation was the same soul growing toward Enlightenment. In the first movie, the Oracle tells Neo he is not yet The One. "I don't know what you're waiting for," she says. "Your next life, maybe." She isn't talking about his fulfillment of the death-and-rebirth routine built into the Matrix. She is talking about the continually reincarnated Neo evolving into THE ONE, which is something she knows is bound to happen eventually. In fact, it takes six incarnations to get there.

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Spacey

Originally Posted by Space_Man

First, are we all in agreement that The Merovingian is basically our Devil figure?

No... I'm not!!!!.......................................... only joking... yes I'm in agreement with that!

[quote]If so (I certainly think he is), the implications of what HE has to say on this matter of choice, is rather interesting: To the Devil, choice is really only about cause & effect relationships. So, for our Enlightened/Christ figure (Neo), the issue is probably going to have a different slant to it, no? I think one of the main things that Neo comes to realize

[quote=Space_Man]Ooo

Originally Posted by DirtyMagicalAly

So....is the Oracle 'special' in the sense that she can know her 'childs' choices he made before he was re-ncarnated this time? Or can any mother see that? Or does she simply know what needs to be changed in order to make sure he keeps growing? And so, it is more educated-guess work?

Hmmmm I really wish I understood more about re-incarnation.... And also, it was probably misleading to call The Oracle "Neo's 'mother'".... I don't mean in a human sense as such....

Originally Posted by Takle

She "birthed" the Neo routine into the Matrix. It is her special child (and perhaps by extension Neo is her child).

I'm not sure if I'm correct in saying this, but if we imagine her, not so much 'giving birth' to Neo, but more 'creating the Neo routine'... it means that she was present at his creation and if, as it seems to be the case, when someone is re-incarnated they make choices about their future life before their birth... she would be aware of the choices that he had made.... does that make better sense? :)

Originally Posted by DASA

So how does this apply to the Matrix? .... The idea of Neo being like 'an avatar' or at least an empowered 'avatar' who gets reincarnated time after time might originate from the concept of avatar in the Bhagavata-Purana?

So Neo could like Arjuna, each time Krishna descends the same souls come with Him, but they don't necessarily know it (like Neo).

Have you read those essays yet, DASA? This is what Brian Takle made of it (and I