Even your wisdom will hold you back!

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Hold you back from being in the present moment without a conceptual mental "thinking" layer over it.

Do you not believe that one can still have thoughts and be present?

Or said another way.. Are you saying every time you talk you can't be in the present moment?

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Do you not believe that one can still have thoughts and be present?

If you are present, you are not identifying with your thoughts.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Or said another way.. Are you saying every time you talk you can't be in the present moment?

You can talk and be present.

[jonesboy]

Then what did mean by holding you back?

[Gem]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

Life is like being in a movie theater where images flash up on the screen which are designed to capture your attention. Images of people in our life, situations, things we believe and think about these images also flash up there on the screen. Ideas about how to not focus on the screen also flash up on the screen. Spiritual teachings, ideas about ourselves, our thoughts about spirituality and mindfulness and emptiness and being in the now flash up on the screen.

Who can take their attention off of these things and make the current moment empty and free?

Even the highest truth we hold can make us pay attention to the screen and remove our freedom in this current moment. Even your wisdom will hold you back.

Hencewhy I'm so enlightened .

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Then what did mean by holding you back?

It doesn't matter if thoughts are there or not. It's your relationship with your thoughts that matters. They hold you back if you identify with them and focus on the conceptual and not the actual.

[RyanWind]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Then what did mean....

I wrote a long answer but then abandoned it cause I could not stand to read it anymore lol... so I posted one sentence answers... but here is the long one I wrote..maybe it will make more sense I don't know...

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Do you not believe that one can still have thoughts and be present?

I wouldn't say one can still have thoughts. In my understanding, the body thinks, we don't. The brain makes thought. What we do is identify with them as us. The brain presents thoughts to us, we attach to the ones we think have meaning or importance to us, we somehow believe "we" are the owners and creators of these thoughts and that is our experience. These thoughts we attach to and identify with then lead to actions etc. We project them as ours and others experience.

Presence is a relationship you have with the brains thoughts. In my experience what happens when you have the awareness of the present moment, thought may or may not be there, it really doesn't matter because you recognize what it is and it has no effects. Your attention is wholly on the perception of now while being alert to any intrusion attempting to pull the awareness into a thought or concept. So you are aware of the empty non-conceptual nature of the current moment and so can recognize if some other element enters that. That's how one stays there anyway. Typically, what happens is you don't notice the sliding back into the conceptual and thought centered consciousness so you lose it and have to find your way back. You fail to notice the moment some other element enters into it and so you lose it

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Or said another way.. Are you saying every time you talk you can't be in the present moment?

I can practice mindfulness while alone so no talking or listening to someone else talking is going on. When I talk about this "mindfulness" or being present or whatever you call it, I'm aware it's not this one defined state. It can vary between shallow or deep, it's on a scale, and it is unique to each individual. Talking, or listening to someone else does tend to pull you out. Listening to yourself is not really a problem because you let that go, but when you listen to someone else talking, you are basically attaching to their thought and identifying with it. But if you don't associate their talk with reality and see it as an unnecessary filter or overlay without any real connection to what is as far as the non-conceptual present moment you are aware of, it really doesn't have an effect on you.

Your response to whatever they said would be reflective of your awareness of the meaningless of their thought. So talking from presence would be very different from what you would call normal talking. But then you could also be aware of the context of the conversation and consciousness of the person you are talking to so you could also speak to them in such a way you give them what they expect. So to them, you appear to be in the same thought attached consciousness they are in though you would not in anyway be a "person" interested in any sort of conflict or negative emotion.

Talking also is not all equal. Some is connected to whatever is actually happening, like say a dog is attacking your cat. If someone says to you, "OMG get a stick a dog is attacking your cat!" That has a direct connection to reality. That is not meaningless. But then if someone says, "OMG I hate the way those kids down the street were making noise yesterday," that talk is meaningless and has no connection to the current moment. So a "present" person speaks differently than one centered in the memory and the conceptual.

[sky]

So it's about using wisdom to know what is wisdom and then having the wisdom to discard the wisdom that is not really wisdom , or something like that.

[Within Silence]

Originally Posted by RyanWind

I wrote a long answer but then abandoned it cause I could not stand to read it anymore lol... so I posted one sentence answers... but here is the long one I wrote..maybe it will make more sense I don't know...



I wouldn't say one can still have thoughts. In my understanding, the body thinks, we don't. The brain makes thought. What we do is identify with them as us. The brain presents thoughts to us, we attach to the ones we think have meaning or importance to us, we somehow believe "we" are the owners and creators of these thoughts and that is our experience. These thoughts we attach to and identify with then lead to actions etc. We project them as ours and others experience.

Presence is a relationship you have with the brains thoughts. In my experience what happens when you have the awareness of the present moment, thought may or may not be there, it really doesn't matter because you recognize what it is and it has no effects. Your attention is wholly on the perception of now while being alert to any intrusion attempting to pull the awareness into a thought or concept. So you are aware of the empty non-conceptual nature of the current moment and so can recognize if some other element enters that. That's how one stays there anyway. Typically, what happens is you don't notice the sliding back into the conceptual and thought centered consciousness so you lose it and have to find your way back. You fail to notice the moment some other element enters into it and so you lose it



I can practice mindfulness while alone so no talking or listening to someone else talking is going on. When I talk about this "mindfulness" or being present or whatever you call it, I'm aware it's not this one defined state. It can vary between shallow or deep, it's on a scale, and it is unique to each individual. Talking, or listening to someone else does tend to pull you out. Listening to yourself is not really a problem because you let that go, but when you listen to someone else talking, you are basically attaching to their thought and identifying with it. But if you don't associate their talk with reality and see it as an unnecessary filter or overlay without any real connection to what is as far as the non-conceptual present moment you are aware of, it really doesn't have an effect on you.

Your response to whatever they said would be reflective of your awareness of the meaningless of their thought. So talking from presence would be very different from what you would call normal talking. But then you could also be aware of the context of the conversation and consciousness of the person you are talking to so you could also speak to them in such a way you give them what they expect. So to them, you appear to be in the same thought attached consciousness they are in though you would not in anyway be a "person" interested in any sort of conflict or negative emotion.

Talking also is not all equal. Some is connected to whatever is actually happening, like say a dog is attacking your cat. If someone says to you, "OMG get a stick a dog is attacking your cat!" That has a direct connection to reality. That is not meaningless. But then if someone says, "OMG I hate the way those kids down the street were making noise yesterday," that talk is meaningless and has no connection to the current moment. So a "present" person speaks differently than one centered in the memory and the conceptual.

One cannot not be in the present, what you're describing here in your example is not that the person is "not present" but rather that the person is unaware of where its attention is focused. In other words, this person lacks mindfulness, it is unaware that it is unaware.

The conscious awareness of where or "upon what" ones attention is focused is what the practice of mindfulness is about as I see it. It is training oneself to be attentive to the functioning of the mind, or really ones own ability to focus attention and to recognize it, to be able to stabilize it, to become aware of the movements of mind, as the mind works like a file system, i.e. when you hear certain words or see certain images the mind brings up thoughts/images that coincide with the words or images you hear/see. For example, say the word Mom or Dad and watch the mind bring up images of Mom/Dad, or perhaps past experiences with Mom/Dad etc. Today, we are inundated with sounds/images and so an untrained mind is called a monkey mind as its jumping all over the place, or for another example, it acts like a new puppy dog and aimlessly (inattentively/without direction) wanders from one think/thought to the next with little awareness of why its doing what its doing. So, after one gets this far in observing how the mind functions, and is consciously aware of mind/thought-patterns and learns how the mind functions, then it can go further and began to ask itself more questions like; "what is it that is aware of all this happening?" And then try to find that which is aware, and then that which is aware of that which is aware, etc.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Can the "highest wisdom" be expressed in words ?

Originally Posted by jonesboy

It can be shared :)

If you don't mind I will share with you a little of my practice to illustrate.

Transmission is a component of many traditions, but it a major component of the inner (or mystical) aspects of the gnostic Christian tradition. Transmissions can be "sent" by divine beings and also masters or adepts of the tradition.

There are two main types of transmission. The lower form is at the level of the "mind" and is often called a mind transmission. The higher form is at the level of the heart (or inner heart) and is often called a "light" transmission.

A mind level transmission is commonly associated with the 3rd eye (mind) and is at the astral level. Energy is sent in a directed way to another being, and this energy is translated by the mind into some sort of vision (or healing). The experience (and power) of the transmission is highly dependent on both the clarity of the sender and receiver beings. Depending on the "frequency range" of the transmission, issues and fears in the subconscious mind may be hit. The resulting mind translation can create a very wild perception/experience. This is also why astral travel/mediumship is not recommended in many traditions, as it is possible for the mind to be "fooled" or for negative beings to hide behind deep subconscious issues and fears. Finally, this type of transmission is still at the level of duality, as the mind still believes there are two beings (sender and receiver) and hence is subject to things like the perception of "shielding".

A light level transmission is very rare and at the level of the "inner heart" or soul. To send such a transmission, one must have realized oneness, or in Christian terms be at least a highly developed "saint" (or master of the tradition). To even notice/receive such a transmission one must have an open heart (open 4th chakra). A light transmission is beyond the local mind and is a communication directly at the soul level. Depending on one's integration at the soul level, the information is then sort of "decompressed" into components that can be understood by the mind. Those with a developed third eye and the capacity to receive a light transmission will often "see" the transmitting soul which can look like a multicolored burning bush at the level of conscious mind.

In a light transmission, the sender has realized oneness and sort of "overlays" their aspect of consciousness on the person, then the natural "light" that they are flows through. In a light transmission, everything that is the sending "being" is included/given to the person. In the process, it is more about the persons ability to "receive". To the receiving person it can feel like "being in a bubble" or like their body pressure has dramatically increased/gotten heavy. Additionally, a divine being/master can share/extend mind clarity (peace that passes human understanding) and the Holy Spirit (Kundalini) in the process.

Transmissions are normally at the "grace" of the divine beings. Mental clarity and an open heart are the key in contacting divine beings. Once one realizes oneness, you can directly overlay/merge with divine beings up to your relative clarity.

Thanks for sharing. If you don't mind, I will share a happening in my life that seems related to what you are describing.

When I was at the Khumba Mela in Haridwar, India, I watched from behind a tree in a park as a turbaned man was sitting throwing small sacrificial items into a little ceremonial fire in front of him. Upon seeing me, he silently signaled for me to come forward and, pointing at the ground, signaled that I should sit before him. He started chanting silently on his japa beads; I started chanting my mantra silently on my rudraksha beads. This, of course, reduces one's thoughts to one and, from there, one can drop the one thought and enter the thought-free stillness.

I recall "questions" arising in some manner that cannot be described and the realization of the "answers" manifesting in an indescribable manner as well shortly after the "question". This went on continuously until there were no more "questions". I then looked at the man in silence and bowed. He acknowledged my bow with a small nodding of his head. With an intuitive sense of completeness, I got up and departed without ever speaking a word as words somehow seemed so inadequate, inappropriate, and unnecessary.

I then left the small park, crossed the road, and entered the Krishna tent where my companions were enjoying the festivities and the free food. They asked me where I had been since I had apparently been missing in action for over 3 hours. (I had no concept of time during this happening and was surprised that I had been gone for so long.) When I told them what had happened, they were incredulous and insisted on meeting this turbaned man. Within a few minutes, we were all standing near the fire where I had been previously but the turbaned man was gone. They looked at me with an air of disbelief. I then asked a nearby man if he had seen the man with the black turban. He looked towards the fire and expressed surprise that the man was no longer there: "He was just here a few seconds ago. I don't know where he is now." He then added that he had been watching me and the turbaned man sitting there for hours totally motionless. He said that people had been coming and going and had been staring at the two of us who seemed complete unaware of what was going on around us as people were gathering. There was just total, motionless silence and peace with no movement whatsoever and no sounds.

I'm not sure what kind of a "transmission" this was or even whether this constitutes a "transmission" but, after it, there were no "questions" that had not been "answered" in this very indescribable communication happening. This was not the only time that this happened. It happened with a Taoist master in Chengdu (China) and in other situations as well. I mention this incident in particular because there were observers who could relate how others perceived the happening whereas, with the Taoist master, I was alone with him in an inner room in the monastery.

For me, the process cannot really be described in words. (By the way, I am familiar with telepathy, as I've met telepathic yogis. This was definitely not at the thought level. It does not seem to be the telepathic phenomenon. It was an intuitively visual knowing-without-knowing if that makes any sense.)

[jonesboy]

It makes a lot of sense :)

Thank you for sharing that beautiful experience.