Observer vs Observed

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Thank you for sharing. We are virtually in complete agreement. You wrote "I learned that the only way to come to/ perceive non-duality is to know myself, meaning know my ego, my I, my thinker, not suppress or kill my ego, my I, my thinker." While I try to avoid the terminology of "the only way", I do agree with you that this is "the only way" but I often qualify it when speaking by saying "the only way for me".

Thank you for pointing out my arrogance to me, I appreciate it. You are right about it only being the only way for me/or one of the ways because I did not find non-duality any other way, so I simply do not know about the other ways you are able to find non-duality, and it will be incorrect and unwise of me to assume, or presume something I do not know with my limited and incomplete knowledge.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The reason I asked those questions of you is that I am meeting with a small group of three young dedicated fellows on Wednesday evening who are focused on the self-inquiry dialogues of Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi. The focus will be on HOW to directly experience non-duality and not just understand it from philosophical and intellectual perspectives.

Ok

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

While I do many of the "Know Yourself" practices that you mentioned in your post, I had the added "good fortune" (in retrospect) to have a NDE in my early 20s which completely changed my perception of the Reality (out-of-body, remote vision, complete symptom-free emergence from a 3-day "irreversible coma", etc.). Then, there were meditative happenings relevant to non-duality that were mind-boggling and totally inconsistent with my understanding of the Reality at that time. This led me to investigate more. I started reading about this stuff AFTER the fact and then focused on becoming firmly established in that state through methodologies similar to what you wrote in your post.

Ok

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Thank you so much for sharing.

You are welcome, and thank you for listening.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Mike,

You seem to go so far as implying you are beyond morality. That sounds like justification for doing whatever you desire, and I posit that can only arise from ego and is the diametric opposite of non-duality. Besides if unconditional love is superior to conditional love and certainly superior to hate isn't that based on a recognition of good and bad? If not then why is unconditional love to be desired over say, conditional love (for one's own desires and benefit) and not caring about your neighbor to the point of reneging on your civic obligations your neighbor depends upon being fulfilled so you can indulge in your own desires?

Although your post was directed to Mike and not to me, I think that I understand Mike's position from a non-duality perspective and would like to contribute to this dialogue since it is of great interest to me.

When one PURIFIES one's self and transcends the little very-limited separatist ego, one soars like an eagle into the sky of consciousness and intuitively knows "without thinking" what is in the best interests of the totality. In that state, there is neither "good" nor is there "bad". There is only an intuitive understanding of what is in the best interests of all... and that "all" obviously also includes one's self. Actions may or may not correspond to societal/cultural standards of "morality" since the primary consideration is focused on what is ultimately in the best interests of the Totality.

The key issue, as I am sure you will point out, is whether one's understanding is really PURE or whether it stems from one's own personal subconscious (or even conscious) desires. That is a tricky point to discuss as the little mind can be quite insidious in the art of self-deception but it is a point on which I have meditated extensively. The key, as Mike has pointed out repeatedly, is to REALLY "Know Yourself".

I would welcome any comments you have regarding this as this is the way I live my life. The process starts with faith in the "unknowable higher power" (expanded consciousness) that lies beyond the realm of thoughts but, with practice and positive results, the faith transforms into confidence which leads to trust and ultimately to complete and utter surrender to the "higher power" of expanded consciousness (non-duality) which guides one unerringly in the best interests of the Totality (non-duality). On the other hand, when operating from the little, limited, separatist ego perspective, the results are often hit-or-miss as it is very difficult at that level to see all the factors influencing the course of events. From the perspective of PURE non-duality, however, the Big Picture becomes clearer.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Thank you for pointing out my arrogance to me, I appreciate it. You are right about it only being the only way for me/or one of the ways because I did not find non-duality any other way, so I simply do not know about the other ways you are able to find non-duality, and it will be incorrect and unwise of me to assume, or presume something I do not know with my limited and incomplete knowledge.

When I read your opening few words, I was not sure whether my comments were well-received. However, as I read your entire post, I agree with you completely.

In some ways, we are similar. Many years ago, my spiritual mentor pointed out my own personal "arrogance" on this exact subject. At that time, I too thought that self-inquiry ("Know Yourself") was the only way.

However, I have since realized that devotion to a spiritual deity like Krishna or Jesus or Allah can also lead to a form of non-duality but in a surprisingly different way. A great jnani (Nisargadatta Maharaj) once told devotional people, "If you truly believe that God can do everything that you expect, then surrender completely to God. Otherwise, leave God alone and KNOW YOURSELF". Complete surrender, in this context, means that one should stop the traditional praise, thanksgiving, and petitioning practices. One should simply LISTEN. When one listens and surrenders to that "higher power" as one sees it, one enters the stillness and drops the little egotistical self albeit through another methodology. Of course, one can only share their path with others of similar disposition because telling a Christian to surrender to Krishna might not be received well for obvious purposes. It seems clear, however,that one who has discovered non-duality through self-inquiry (Know Yourself), as you have done, can explain the process clearly AND can also understand the path of devotional surrender as well.

Also, there are those who practice karma yoga (selfless service to humanity). They too can "lose one's self" in selfless service and thus enter a semblance of non-duality.

The interesting thing is that a self-inquiry non-duality person can understand the mind and how the other two practices get incredible non-duality results. However, the devotional ones and the karma yoga ones have a lesser understanding of non-duality in that they rarely have even the slightest understanding of how the self-inquiry approach works.

I have thus learned to say that my way is NOT "the only way" but it is "the only way for me". Having said that, I have noticed that the self-inquiry types consistently have a deeper understanding of the Reality than the others but I recognize the fact that many simply cannot do self-inquiry. Their disposition is ill-suited to that approach and hence another way must be prescribed that caters more to their personal dispositions and thus contributes to at least some degree to a non-dualistic existence.

Ramana Maharshi (self-inquiry practitioner) has explicitly stated that, if a person cannot do any of the three practices mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita (self-inquiry, complete devotional surrender, selfless service), then they should simply practice pranayama (breathing exercises) as that is a "natural sedative" and it will at least calm them down.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

When one PURIFIES one's self and transcends the little very-limited separatist ego, one soars like an eagle into the sky of consciousness and intuitively knows "without thinking" what is in the best interests of the totality. In that state, there is neither "good" nor is there "bad". There is only an intuitive understanding of what is in the best interests of all[/... and that "all" obviously also includes one's self. Actions may or may not correspond to societal/cultural standards of "morality" since the primary consideration is focused on what is ultimately in the best interests of the Totality.

I would like to add that the ego is only limited, because the ego thinks/has thoughts that are based on values/conditional love/morality (this is how I am able to tell if a thought is based on intuition/non-duality/unconditional love or if a thought is based on memory/duality/morality. I would call what I recieve through intuition just perfect/complete knowledge/gnosis of the truth of what I want to know (by asking/ self inquiring) or knowledge/gnosis of the truth that I should just know (recieving knowledge/gnosis when I did not ask /self inquire) that we ourselves store in our own subconscious mind(s) and it is also limited because the ego thinks it is separate from his/her creator that gave and gives him/her life, by animating his/her physical body.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The key issue, as I am sure you will point out, is whether one's understanding is really PURE or whether it stems from one's own personal subconscious (or even conscious) desires. That is a tricky point to discuss as the little mind can be quite insidious in the art of self-deception but it is a point on which I have meditated extensively. The key, as Mike has pointed out repeatedly, is to REALLY "Know Yourself".

Yes know yourself/self realization, means know how your ego, your I, your me, your thinker works as a concrete fact on the deepest of levels, while you are in the present moment, the right here and right now, not while you are in a memory of the past including memories of pleasure, comfort and pain, and not while you are daydreaming about the future or about the present moment while you are in the present moment.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I would welcome any comments you have regarding this as this is the way I live my life. The process starts with faith in the "unknowable higher power" (expanded consciousness) that lies beyond the realm of thoughts but, with practice and positive results, the faith transforms into confidence which leads to trust and ultimately to complete and utter surrender to the "higher power" of expanded consciousness (non-duality) which guides one unerringly in the best interests of the Totality (non-duality). On the other hand, when operating from the little, limited, separatist ego perspective, the results are often hit-or-miss as it is very difficult at that level to see all the factors influencing the course of events. From the perspective of PURE non-duality, however, the Big Picture becomes clearer.

I could not of said what is in bold any clearer.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

When I read your opening few words, I was not sure whether my comments were well-received. However, as I read your entire post, I agree with you completely.

In some ways, we are similar. Many years ago, my spiritual mentor pointed out my own personal "arrogance" on this exact subject. At that time, I too thought that self-inquiry ("Know Yourself") was the only way.

However, I have since realized that devotion to a spiritual deity like Krishna or Jesus or Allah can also lead to a form of non-duality but in a surprisingly different way. A great jnani (Nisargadatta Maharaj) once told devotional people, "If you truly believe that God can do everything that you expect, then surrender completely to God. Otherwise, leave God alone and KNOW YOURSELF". Complete surrender, in this context, means that one should stop the traditional praise, thanksgiving, and petitioning practices. One should simply LISTEN. When one listens and surrenders to that "higher power" as one sees it, one enters the stillness and drops the little egotistical self albeit through another methodology. Of course, one can only share their path with others of similar disposition because telling a Christian to surrender to Krishna might not be received well for obvious purposes. It seems clear, however,that one who has discovered non-duality through self-inquiry (Know Yourself), as you have done, can explain the process clearly AND can also understand the path of devotional surrender as well.

Also, there are those who practice karma yoga (selfless service to humanity). They too can "lose one's self" in selfless service and thus enter a semblance of non-duality.

The interesting thing is that a self-inquiry non-duality person can understand the mind and how the other two practices get incredible non-duality results. However, the devotional ones and the karma yoga ones have a lesser understanding of non-duality in that they rarely have even the slightest understanding of how the self-inquiry approach works. (I had to delete a smiley, that was in this space, so I am able to use a smiley in my response)

I have thus learned to say that my way is NOT "the only way" but it is "the only way for me". Having said that, I have noticed that the self-inquiry types consistently have a deeper understanding of the Reality than the others but I recognize the fact that many simply cannot do self-inquiry. Their disposition is ill-suited to that approach and hence another way must be prescribed that caters more to their personal dispositions and thus contributes to at least some degree to a non-dualistic existence.

Ramana Maharshi (self-inquiry practitioner) has explicitly stated that, if a person cannot do any of the three practices mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita (self-inquiry, complete devotional surrender, selfless service), then they should simply practice pranayama (breathing exercises) as that is a "natural sedative" and it will at least calm them down.

I received your comment/message well

I always have been an extreme introvert, so perhaps self-inquiry and intuition works best for introverts. My mind has always been calm and still but I still had my personal prejudices, fears, conflicts, confusions, contradictions and ect. I used to always compare my calm and still mind to extroverts who did not have a still and calm mind. This caused me to wonder why I wasn't more like extroverts and it made me feel and think something was wrong with me and it made me depressed big time. You can only imagine the confusion, conflict and contradictions that caused me. That is how I know confusion, conflict, contradictions, assumptions and presumptions so well

Speaking of Krishna, and of the other ways to find non-duality particularly the devotional one, I almost became a Hare Krishna back in the late 90's/early 2000's, when I was in my late teens and early twenties, when I met a Hare Krishna in a yahoo chatroom.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Although your post was directed to Mike and not to me, I think that I understand Mike's position from a non-duality perspective and would like to contribute to this dialogue since it is of great interest to me.

When one PURIFIES one's self and transcends the little very-limited separatist ego, one soars like an eagle into the sky of consciousness and intuitively knows "without thinking" what is in the best interests of the totality. In that state, there is neither "good" nor is there "bad". There is only an intuitive understanding of what is in the best interests of all... and that "all" obviously also includes one's self. Actions may or may not correspond to societal/cultural standards of "morality" since the primary consideration is focused on what is ultimately in the best interests of the Totality.

The key issue, as I am sure you will point out, is whether one's understanding is really PURE or whether it stems from one's own personal subconscious (or even conscious) desires. That is a tricky point to discuss as the little mind can be quite insidious in the art of self-deception but it is a point on which I have meditated extensively. The key, as Mike has pointed out repeatedly, is to REALLY "Know Yourself".

I would welcome any comments you have regarding this as this is the way I live my life. The process starts with faith in the "unknowable higher power" (expanded consciousness) that lies beyond the realm of thoughts but, with practice and positive results, the faith transforms into confidence which leads to trust and ultimately to complete and utter surrender to the "higher power" of expanded consciousness (non-duality) which guides one unerringly in the best interests of the Totality (non-duality). On the other hand, when operating from the little, limited, separatist ego perspective, the results are often hit-or-miss as it is very difficult at that level to see all the factors influencing the course of events. From the perspective of PURE non-duality, however, the Big Picture becomes clearer.

I am also trying to convey the entire picture that for some people, like myself, not knowing the truth, which is perfect and complete knowledge of the unknown/unseen or not perceived non-duality/unconditional love (gnostics call this perfect and complete knowledge gnosis) (duality straight from memory/the subconscious mind including morality causes incomplete/partial knowledge thus creates limited knowledge. Just take a look at all of the religions and spiritual beliefs/practices of the world as an example. All of the religions and spiritual beliefs/practices of the world have bits of truth here and there in them, not for conspiracy sinister intents and purposes but it is for the people who learned/are learning the truth with perfect and complete knowledge about non-duality to say/think to themselves in a neutral balanced way, ah huh, now, I truly understand and know what is really the what is/what is really going on in the world, in society etc) causes inner personal and deep confusions, conflicts, and contradictions. This happened to me, so I know it is a fact as a part of my getting to know myself/a part of my self realization. Non-duality/unconditional love is neutral/balanced, non-duality/unconditional love is not an extreme, like thinking this or that is good/bad or positive/negative is. In order to know what 100% non-duality is as a whole as a concrete real fact, you need to see/know non-duality as a whole, not in seperate bits and pieces of non-duality. here and there.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I would like to add that the ego is only limited, because the ego thinks/has thoughts that are based on values/conditional love/morality (this is how I am able to tell if a thought is based on intuition/non-duality/unconditional love or if a thought is based on memory/duality/morality. I would call what I recieve through intuition just perfect/complete knowledge/gnosis of the truth of what I want to know (by asking/ self inquiring) or knowledge/gnosis of the truth that I should just know (recieving knowledge/gnosis when I did not ask /self inquire) that we ourselves store in our own subconscious mind(s) and it is also limited because the ego thinks it is separate from his/her creator that gave and gives him/her life, by animating his/her physical body.

Yes know yourself/self realization, means know how your ego, your I, your me, your thinker works as a concrete fact on the deepest of levels, while you are in the present moment, the right here and right now, not while you are in a memory of the past including memories of pleasure, comfort and pain, and not while you are daydreaming about the future or about the present moment while you are in the present moment.

I could not of said what is in bold any clearer.

We are essentially in agreement on the above points.

As you indicated, one is only limited by one's own thoughts. The apparent limitations are indeed self-created. Having directly witnessed the "impossible" with extraordinary beings throughout the world, one eventually realizes that virtually nothing is "impossible" EXCEPT when there is a self-imposed limitation created by one's own thoughts/beliefs/conditioning/etc.

Regarding your comment about "this is how I am able to tell if a thought is based on intuition/non-duality/unconditional love or if a thought is based on memory/duality/morality", you seem to make it sound easier than it is. Initially, I experienced some difficulty with this differentiation especially when subtle subconscious tendencies were involved. However, as the purification process continues and the conditioned subconscious tendencies are eliminated (conscious sleep and dream study facilitated this a lot for me), the process does indeed become easier and easier until one REALLY KNOWS ONE'S SELF and thus removes virtually all doubts regarding this differentiation. (Even now, however, some "surprises" do manifest and these indicate that there is still some more work to do relevant to purification. )

Nice post

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I received your comment/message well

I always have been an extreme introvert, so perhaps self-inquiry and intuition works best for introverts. My mind has always been calm and still but I still had my personal prejudices, fears, conflicts, confusions, contradictions and ect. I used to always compare my calm and still mind to extroverts who did not have a still and calm mind. This caused me to wonder why I wasn't more like extroverts and it made me feel and think something was wrong with me and it made me depressed big time. You can only imagine the confusion, conflict and contradictions that caused me. That is how I know confusion, conflict, contradictions, assumptions and presumptions so well

Speaking of Krishna, and of the other ways to find non-duality particularly the devotional one, I almost became a Hare Krishna back in the late 90's/early 2000's, when I was in my late teens and early twenties, when I met a Hare Krishna in a yahoo chatroom.

Although I am very outgoing and most people consider me to be an extrovert, I am actually a very pronounced introvert as psychological studies (Meyer Briggs personality test, for example) confirm. For me, an introvert in the true sense of the word has nothing to do with being outgoing or not. One online definition with which I agree is that "People who are introverted tend to be inward turning, or focused more on internal thoughts, feelings and moods rather than seeking out external stimulation." As an introvert, I am aware of what is transpiring around me and am very outgoing. However, I reflect internally when it's time to make a decision. Extroverts seem to involve everyone in the decision-making process.

Based on that definition, I agree completely that introverts would indeed be more inclined towards self-inquiry than other practices. Unlike you, my mind was not always still but, as part of the investigative "Know Yourself" process, I realized that the personal gestalt of mental activity was obscuring the clear vision and hence I proceeded to calm and still the mind in order to see clearly.

On the other hand, most extroverts seem to focus on external stimulation and hence would seem to be more inclined to devotional practices (the "external God") or karma yoga (activity-oriented service to others). This is an interesting point that I had not previously considered much.

As for the Hare Krishnas, I actually met the founder of the Hare Krishna movement, Prabhupada, in NYC many years ago. He is obviously a bhakti (devotional person with devotion directed towards Krishna). I am a self-inquiry jnani-type. We had a classic disagreement on the purport of the Bhagavad Gita because, although the Gita talks about different ways to approach Godhead (self-inquiry, devotion, selfless karma yoga service), his "purport" consistently pointed out that bhakti (specifically devotion to Krishna) was the best way and that didn't work for me. If he had said that it was the best way for him personally, then we would have connected better.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I am also trying to convey the entire picture that for some people, like myself, not knowing the truth, which is perfect and complete knowledge of the unknown/unseen or not perceived non-duality/unconditional love (gnostics call this perfect and complete knowledge gnosis) (duality straight from memory/the subconscious mind including morality causes incomplete/partial knowledge thus creates limited knowledge. Just take a look at all of the religions and spiritual beliefs/practices of the world as an example. All of the religions and spiritual beliefs/practices of the world have bits of truth here and there in them, not for conspiracy sinister intents and purposes but it is for the people who learned/are learning the truth with perfect and complete knowledge about non-duality to say/think to themselves in a neutral balanced way, ah huh, now, I truly understand and know what is really the what is/what is really going on in the world, in society etc) causes inner personal and deep confusions, conflicts, and contradictions. This happened to me, so I know it is a fact as a part of my getting to know myself/a part of my self realization. Non-duality/unconditional love is neutral/balanced, non-duality/unconditional love is not an extreme, like thinking this or that is good/bad or positive/negative is. In order to know what 100% non-duality is as a whole as a concrete real fact, you need to see/know non-duality as a whole, not in seperate bits and pieces of non-duality. here and there.

The Sufi Mystic Hazrat Inayat Khan once stated that, in his time, Carl Jung was the greatest of the psychologists because he empirically bordered on the spiritual with his research into the "collective unconscious". By attuning to that, one gets more and more expanded glimpses of the "entire picture", as you put it. When people doubt non-duality and interconnectedness, I simply bring up Carl Jung to the psychologically oriented. Quantum physics also seems headed in the direction of an unbroken whole (Neils Bohr and David Bohm). There are many ways to trigger reflection in others regarding non-duality.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

The Sufi Mystic Hazrat Inayat Khan once stated that, in his time, Carl Jung was the greatest of the psychologists because he empirically bordered on the spiritual with his research into the "collective unconscious". By attuning to that, one gets more and more expanded glimpses of the "entire picture", as you put it. When people doubt non-duality and interconnectedness, I simply bring up Carl Jung to the psychologically oriented. Quantum physics also seems headed in the direction of an unbroken whole (Neils Bohr and David Bohm). There are many ways to trigger reflection in others regarding non-duality.

Jiddu Krishnmurti had a few dialogs with David Bohm in written and video form.