Religious or Spiritual?

Originally Posted by ScarlettHayden

Self-realization is just the beginning. Enlightenment is pure awareness of Self at all times. The two often get mistaken.

I'd love to know how you know this to be true.
I myself would love to know the truth, however, I am bound by common sense.

[Seawolf]

It's a little suspect when those who claim to be aware of themselves aren't aware they are following a specific set of spiritual beliefs just like everyone else does, and that they tend put all other religions under the umbrella of their own beliefs, when in fact others don't believe the same and may have a completely different concept of enlightenment.. and there are many. Spirituality is subjective and is not about facts, but about faith which is very diverse. To me that seems like something an enlightened person would realize, to appreciate the beauty of diverse faith, and not put it down as 'just religion' unlike 'I' who has the real spirituality/enlightenment. If a person can't realize he/she has faith like 'they' do, I question that awareness.

[LadyMay]

Originally Posted by Ecthalion

I'd love to know how you know this to be true.
I myself would love to know the truth, however, I am bound by common sense.

It is the experience of every person who finishes the Kundalini process. Although I cannot confirm their experiences of pure awareness at all times for myself, as I am also currently going through the Kundalini process it makes a lot of sense. When I had my Self-realization for a while I thought that was the end of my journey but then I realized that I needed to continue clearing my negative stuff out and illusions of reality so that I could return to that state and stay in it. It just made sense. 'Self-actualization', if you will. And so, once I have accomplished that I will let you know.

What does your common sense tell you in regards to this? Perhaps it is just another illusion..

[LadyMay]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

It's a little suspect when those who claim to be aware of themselves aren't aware they are following a specific set of spiritual beliefs just like everyone else does, and that they tend put all other religions under the umbrella of their own beliefs,

when in fact others don't believe the same and may have a completely different concept of enlightenment.. and there are many.

Spirituality is subjective and is not about facts, but about faith which is very diverse. To me that seems like something an enlightened person would realize, to appreciate the beauty of diverse faith, and not put it down as 'just religion' unlike 'I' who has the real spirituality. If a person can't realize he/she faith like 'they' do, I question that awareness.

You don't know me. You cannot claim that.

If you recall, I said that every person experiences Self-realization differently in regards to their beliefs.

See my last two points. Also, the end of this sentence is riddled with egoic illusion.

Perhaps you should question your own awareness better.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by ScarlettHayden

You don't know me. You cannot claim that.

If you recall, I said that every person experiences Self-realization differently in regards to their beliefs.

See my last two points. Also, the end of this sentence is riddled with egoic illusion.

Perhaps you should question your own awareness better.

I was talking more in general from hearing many people claiming to be enlightened or claiming to 'know' what it means over the years, and not you specifically.

I mean that religions, which I mean just having to do with spiritual beliefs and experiences, are about faith and not facts. Someone who let's say, experiences their spirituality through religious rituals or services, which are normally seen as not very spiritual by the 'spiritual, not religious' crowd, actually are not any less enlightened because enlightenment is a subjective concept. Those seen as 'not self realized' or not as aware or not as enlightened for whatever reason, is just one perspective and is based on faith, not fact.

[LadyMay]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

I was talking more in general from hearing many people claiming to be enlightened or claiming to 'know' what it means over the years, and not you specifically.

Okay, thank you for the clarification.

Those seen as 'not self realized' or not as aware or not as enlightened for whatever reason, is just one perspective and is based on faith, not fact.

The fact was, before my realization I was blind. That is not a matter of faith.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by ScarlettHayden

Okay, thank you for the clarification.



The fact was, before my realization I was blind. That is not a matter of faith.

I'm not trying to discredit your spiritual experience by saying the spiritual is about having faith. It sounds like you're having a spiritual experience in life, that you describe as realization and I'm sure it's very positive. There are different experiences relating to different cultures and perspectives of the world. One person may see and experience religion completely differently across the world, or even here in our own environment.

The Kogi tribe of Columbia are interesting in that we can get a glimpse into some ancient religion, as they are the last remnant of Mayan civilization. Worship of nature gods and giving them gifts of gold in a theocratic society is something Westerners might not relate to very well, but it's definitely fascinating.

Christian Evangelical religion in modern society is also interesting to me, in a different way. When people talk about religion being something inferior, it's a bit odd considering 'they' are just experiencing their spirituality in culture that may be different than ours, like a Mayan or conservative Evangelical one for example. People have different personalities and temperaments as well as life experiences, so it's really impossible to say who is farther along than another person in spirituality, it's not something I usually think of measuring. If I disagree with someone's views about various religious topics, that's not any indication of their level of enlightenment to me. I think all of to a degree have a bit of self-delusion even if we have alot of self-realization. It's just how the human mind works, it's not ever going to be perfect because there are so many variables. There are different kinds of awareness as well that some are better than others at, and vice versa.

[LadyMay]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

I'm not trying to discredit your spiritual experience by saying the spiritual is about having faith. It sounds like you're having a spiritual experience in life, that you describe as realization and I'm sure it's very positive. There are different experiences relating to different cultures and perspectives of the world. One person may see and experience religion completely differently across the world, or even here in our own environment.

The Kogi tribe of Columbia are interesting in that we can get a glimpse into some ancient religion, as they are the last remnant of Mayan civilization. Worship of nature gods and giving them gifts of gold in a theocratic society is something Westerners might not relate to very well, but it's definitely fascinating.

Christian Evangelical religion in modern society is also interesting to me, in a different way. When people talk about religion being something inferior, it's a bit odd considering 'they' are just experiencing their spirituality in culture that may be different than ours, like a Mayan or conservative Evangelical one for example. People have different personalities and temperaments as well as life experiences, so it's really impossible to say who is farther along than another person in spirituality, it's not something I usually think of measuring. If I disagree with someone's views about various religious topics, that's not any indication of their level of enlightenment to me. I think all of to a degree have a bit of self-delusion even if we have alot of self-realization. It's just how the human mind works, it's not ever going to be perfect because there are so many variables. There are different kinds of awareness as well that some are better than others at, and vice versa.

You've made a lot of good points in this, something I don't disagree with for once

I don't see religion as inferior. If you think about it from outside the third dimension all souls are eternal so all souls are the same age. Discriminating is pointless. But they don't all have the same experiences, as you said. So the way they develop and get to the point of individual pure awareness within the third dimension differs. They may have experiences of being Christians or Hindus or even the Mayans in past lives.. all these are perfect for the soul in question, and so why should I question their worth? There are many ways to the experience of Self-realization itself. A study of Hinduism will show anyone that.

I agree that being in a human body subject to a human mind will mean everyone has some sort of delusion. Just because I have had the experience of Self-realization does not mean I am an exception. The only difference now is that I am aware of my delusions and work to actively remove them. To me the only person who has no delusions is a person living in continual pure Self-awareness.. they see things exactly as they are from every angle possible. But I see this mostly as impossible due to the structure of the mind/body, and this is why I believe such a person will move onto another realm from this point onwards. The human mind/body cannot contain their individual awareness anymore. But you see a person with this type of awareness would've had to have experienced lives from all angles possible, in order to see them all as a collective whole. This is why I do not see religion as inferior. Religion and spirituality do not have more or less weight than the other. They're just different angles of the same thing.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by ScarlettHayden

You've made a lot of good points in this, something I don't disagree with for once

I don't see religion as inferior. If you think about it from outside the third dimension all souls are eternal so all souls are the same age. Discriminating is pointless. But they don't all have the same experiences, as you said. So the way they develop and get to the point of individual pure awareness within the third dimension differs. They may have experiences of being Christians or Hindus or even the Mayans in past lives.. all these are perfect for the soul in question, and so why should I question their worth? There are many ways to the experience of Self-realization itself. A study of Hinduism will show anyone that.

I agree that being in a human body subject to a human mind will mean everyone has some sort of delusion. Just because I have had the experience of Self-realization does not mean I am an exception. The only difference now is that I am aware of my delusions and work to actively remove them. To me the only person who has no delusions is a person living in continual pure Self-awareness.. they see things exactly as they are from every angle possible. But I see this mostly as impossible due to the structure of the mind/body, and this is why I believe such a person will move onto another realm from this point onwards. The human mind/body cannot contain their individual awareness anymore. But you see a person with this type of awareness would've had to have experienced lives from all angles possible, in order to see them all as a collective whole. This is why I do not see religion as inferior. Religion and spirituality do not have more or less weight than the other. They're just different angles of the same thing.

I understand how you feel. It's common I think these days in our modern secular society to have a lot of negative opinion of religion, and bit of a departure from the norm to hear someone not against it which is impressive. It gets kind of old, I also heard the same thing from some Evangelicals that were adamant about having 'real' spirituality and not religion like all others. I agree it's all part of the human experience, but some of it can get boring after awhile.. from seeing it so much.

[LadyMay]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

I understand how you feel. It's common I think these days in our modern secular society to have a lot of negative opinion of religion, and bit of a departure from the norm to hear someone not against it which is impressive. It gets kind of old, I also heard the same thing from some Evangelicals that were adamant about having 'real' spirituality and not religion like all others. I agree it's all part of the human experience, but some of it can get boring after awhile.. from seeing it so much.

It's not religion that's negative. It's the negative associations we form about religion. Many of us have had bad experiences with it and so we think of it negatively. But experience is experience, neither good or bad (despite what it seems), and whilst I also have my own past negative associations with religion this doesn't mean I see religion as wrong or worthless or inferior It just wasn't for me, in this life.

Well.. it's easier to see from evangelicals because they're so open about it but I think trying to assert one's point of view as the only one is a universal experience, whether it's related to religion or spirituality or on how to tie ones shoe laces