Nonduality and "The Guru".

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Iamit

To the moderators. Is there no moderation here to prevent posts like the above which focus on the person rather than the issues?

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Yes, I'd rather hire an unskilled plumber off the street than an expert too. Really, what is the value? And the person proclaiming this "Truth" with no credentials - they are not to be questioned or else! "(cheap tactic and insecure beliefs and all...)"

If Jesus or Buddha turned up tomorrow, I'd definitely ignore them - yes, we are now officially on the same page. ("Hey dude, all IS ONE so get out of here, J, no-one needs you!")

Let me help you again to explain a bit:

This is in effect what you are proclaiming - that no-one needs to look to the authority figure or seek an enlightened teacher and that people can pick up concepts themselves.

This is akin to turning your back on a modern day Jesus, Buddha, or other Avatar because "let's face it, gang, who needs these losers?"

And the point in this tongue and cheek example is it is the exact reason why we needed Jesus and Buddha back then - expertise, authenticity, genuine Gnosis and depth of spiritual insight that far surpasses your wildest imagination.

I like FallingLeave's example - it is true that we can just have fun (I know I love fun ) but at the same time, in sincerity, when there are genuine spiritual aspirants who seek to know Truth/non-duality/God/Dharma/Buddha/Spirit/Source - then it is appropriate that the seeker find an expert. This is appropriate on a number of levels, including, but not limited to, people do not know what they do not know, and even more importantly, one cannot see one's own limitations/blindspots which is the wares of the delusional mind and general ignorance. Whether they can actually find an expert or not is another issue, and whether all teachers are genuine experts is also another matter. That is not up for debate.

But your initial proclamation is wildly off base for that exact reason, exemplified and clarified through my dramatic posts.

Also, I have to say, that again your concepts of non-duality and "everything is perfect" is belied through the reality of this experience for you, and that is why picking up a concept here and there [even if from genuine sources such as Ramana Maharsi] is probably not going to be good enough for 99.9% of the world's population. Happy for you to continue as you see fit of course, but why proclaim your version as the truth?

Perseverance furthers, and so does assistance when needed. Hallelujah

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by sentient

I understand it as “Clear Light” that sustains all life.
Everyone and every thing has Spirit i.e. is thus a “being of light”, but some vessels being emptier (I suppose) emanate (or reflect) more light than others, hence in their presence the shift into that shared presence/oneness is more profound, there is more dimensional depth to it.

In those situations, I do not have a problem silencing my mind, taking my place (in the all-inclusive circle) and starting to watch how the other vessel more aligned in the centerless centre does it.

I love the Feeling of Truth, sentient, and yes, Beings of Light or the like - beautiful.

Thank you for the reminder, and the lift.

In appreciation,

BT

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

Let me help you again to explain a bit:

This is in effect what you are proclaiming - that no-one needs to look to the authority figure or seek an enlightened teacher and that people can pick up concepts themselves.

This is akin to turning your back on a modern day Jesus, Buddha, or other Avatar because "let's face it, gang, who needs these losers?"

And the point in this tongue and cheek example is it is the exact reason why we needed Jesus and Buddha back then - expertise, authenticity, genuine Gnosis and depth of spiritual insight that far surpasses your wildest imagination.

I like FallingLeave's example - it is true that we can just have fun (I know I love fun ) but at the same time, in sincerity, when there are genuine spiritual aspirants who seek to know Truth/non-duality/God/Dharma/Buddha/Spirit/Source - then it is appropriate that the seeker find an expert. This is appropriate on a number of levels, including, but not limited to, people do not know what they do not know, and even more importantly, one cannot see one's own limitations/blindspots which is the wares of the delusional mind and general ignorance. Whether they can actually find an expert or not is another issue, and whether all teachers are genuine experts is also another matter. That is not up for debate.

But your initial proclamation is wildly off base for that exact reason, exemplified and clarified through my dramatic posts.

Also, I have to say, that again your concepts of non-duality and "everything is perfect" is belied through the reality of this experience for you, and that is why picking up a concept here and there [even if from genuine sources such as Ramana Maharsi] is probably not going to be good enough for 99.9% of the world's population. Happy for you to continue as you see fit of course, but why proclaim your version as the truth?

Perseverance furthers, and so does assistance when needed. Hallelujah

I'll ignore your boring continued focus on the person for the same sad reasons.

The ideas/concepts expressed in the words do not have to be spoken by your experts for people to resonate with the words. Thats just another unecessary layer of burden for seekers to know which experts to believe in.

There is no misunderstanding. We disagree and should leave it at that. Forget your defensive focus on the person. Good luck with your experts. I hope for your sake there is nothing hidden which may come to light and result in your loss of faith.

Have fun:)

[sky]

No matter how many guru's or teachers you associate with if it doesn't affect your essence for the better then you are wasting your time, you can change the label but the ingredients remain the same and visible for all to see.....

' You will know them by their fruits '

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

I think this thread demonstrates some good reasons why teachers/Guides are actually helpful. {"Jesus, please stay at the door - I told you you're not welcome or needed - what is wrong with you?!"}

And the reason is that non-duality is not just a concept or idea, in my understanding, and when it's just picked up at that conceptual level it won't really help with a life transformation or how to approach life/relationships/interactions/animals/people/plants/trees/thesky/theclouds etc.
i.e. It's just a concept and superficial at best. "Life is perfect as it is" is refuted by reality when it is false. Why it then wants to spread/continue a weak chain-link to others is a question mark as well for me.

You misunderstand. All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

In another post you seemed unclear about how nonduality may be helpful for some seekers. Let me try to clarify. If there is a resonance between the seeker and the idea (each having a vibration/frequency) it is obvious how that may end a feeling of disconnection, because it is not dependant on the seeker acheiving any particular state, because all states are already Oneness manifest! This may work for seekers who are disillusioned with paths and practises or those that have always had a sense that things are perfect just as they already are.

In terms of connection it doesn't matter that there is only understanding and no resonance, for it must already be Oneness only understanding and not resonating!

It can be very difficult to include all as Oneness manifest. We are so used to seeing things as separate, But a switch can be made by asking "Am I making an exception rather than including (whatever appearance is being considered) as Oneness manifest.

Agreement is not required. The point of this exchange for me is mutual understanding. so I hope this is making things clearer.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Iamit

You misunderstand. All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

In another post you seemed unclear about how nonduality may be helpful for some seekers. Let me try to clarify. If there is a resonance between the seeker and the idea (each having a vibration/frequency) it is obvious how that may end a feeling of disconnection, because it is not dependant on the seeker acheiving any particular state, because all states are already Oneness manifest! This may work for seekers who are disillusioned with paths and practises or those that have always had a sense that things are perfect just as they already are.

In terms of connection it doesn't matter that there is only understanding and no resonance, for it must already be Oneness only understanding and not resonating!

It can be very difficult to include all as Oneness manifest. We are so used to seeing things as separate, But a switch can be made by asking "Am I making an exception rather than including (whatever appearance is being considered) as Oneness manifest.

Agreement is not required. The point of this exchange for me is mutual understanding. so I hope this is making things clearer.

I prefer non dual.

With that being said, it is the goal to realize that you are that essence which is all things, that is arises from you, is you. That within you, that you are all of creation and beyond. It is all light, which is you.

The goal is to let go of the obstructions/upset/attachments to get to that realization.

It is not a thinking, a concept it is a being.

Kashmir Shaivism is really good at explaining this process. Would you like some quotes to help with this?

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Iamit

It can be very difficult to include all as Oneness manifest. We are so used to seeing things as separate, But a switch can be made by asking "Am I making an exception rather than including (whatever appearance is being considered) as Oneness manifest.

This reads as if including all as Oneness manifest is simply a mental judgement on whatever is presenting itself. There is value in having the mental understanding that all appearances are manifestations of an underlying Oneness. But when we actually realise Oneness as a reality then there is no need to ask ourselves anything, there is no need to try to include all as Oneness manifest. There is simply Oneness within which all things arise. This is not a condition of mental understanding.

Peace.

[sentient]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Kashmir Shaivism is really good at explaining this process. Would you like some quotes to help with this?

Could you perhaps start a new thread explaining what Kashmir Shaivism is and how it explains the process?

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Iamit

You misunderstand. All is perfect in the sense that it is Oneness manifest, even the things you dont like. From a nondual perspective Oneness is the only reality, despite the very convincing appearance of difference. From that perspective, the only reality available to appear as all there is including the things you dont like......is Oneness.

In another post you seemed unclear about how nonduality may be helpful for some seekers. Let me try to clarify. If there is a resonance between the seeker and the idea (each having a vibration/frequency) it is obvious how that may end a feeling of disconnection, because it is not dependant on the seeker acheiving any particular state, because all states are already Oneness manifest! This may work for seekers who are disillusioned with paths and practises or those that have always had a sense that things are perfect just as they already are.

In terms of connection it doesn't matter that there is only understanding and no resonance, for it must already be Oneness only understanding and not resonating!

It can be very difficult to include all as Oneness manifest. We are so used to seeing things as separate, But a switch can be made by asking "Am I making an exception rather than including (whatever appearance is being considered) as Oneness manifest.

Agreement is not required. The point of this exchange for me is mutual understanding. so I hope this is making things clearer.

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to review this topic further.

Unfortunately this explanation and your concept is antithetical to the "Oneness" "Non-duality" teachings of advanced spiritual traditions and another example of why your call for no expertise/no gurus/no teachers is so weak. i.e. it is evident that there is no practical understanding or experiential experience.

Let me explain something else. The Sages i.e. Gurus/teachers who you yourself picked this idea up from - first had the realization/experiential insight i.e. Gnosis into what genuine "non-duality/Oneness/Spirit/Universe/God/Consciousness" etc was - from there they used what means they had to "teach" i.e. words to do the best they could to 'point'

Hence, their words have the flavor and accuracy of Truth.

What you are proposing is to take a concept, forgo any expertise of genuine realization and try to mark the word into your world. Hence the inability to take challenge, trying to frame any logical analysis to your premises as "personal attacks" {Help!!!} etc.

i.e. Non-duality when not adopted through a genuine course of spiritual practice will always be weak, insubstantial, unable to withstand challenge, and moreso perhaps the least appealing point for an aspirant - it will always only remain a concept. Furthermore, it lacks any of the actual consequences of spiritual realization. It involves an actual shift in consciousness, God-Self and the like. It is not used as a concept to overlay onto the subjective world - "Oh this person is an idiot, but it is all Oneness so hallelujah perfection"

Anyway, back to my original post, which you tried to deflect by crying "personal attack" (funny considering you are posing as some authority figure) - you posit not requiring a Guru and at the same time you inherently position yourself as a Guru/Teacher. Not the first, but please at least be open minded about different paths for different people. {"No, Jesus, again NO!"}

Here are words from a teacher who do/did realize "Oneness" and "discrimination" and decided to speak to help others through encouraging paths of genuine inquiry:

Nisargadatta Maharaj: When you go beyond awareness, there is a state of non-duality, in which there is no cognition, only pure being. In the state of non-duality, all separation ceases.

In the stillness of the mind, I saw myself as I am: unbound.

When you go deep inside nothing is all there is. There is no 'I am'. The 'I am' merges in the Absolute.

PS Jyotir made some good points, are you ever going to respond to him?

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by sky123

No matter how many guru's or teachers you associate with if it doesn't affect your essence for the better then you are wasting your time, you can change the label but the ingredients remain the same and visible for all to see.....

' You will know them by their fruits '

Nice quote, sky123, for balance you should probably add no matter how many gurus or teachers you don't associate with!

Also, this assumes you know what fruits mean - ill will comes in many forms