Understanding the Lords Prayer

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

Hell and Satan are not equivalent, and it was only claimed that the Pope had said hell didn't exist. Just because you relate the two together and wish they were denied by the Pope doesn't mean the Pope said Satan didn't exist. You're being subjective.

What if the pope was musing on the idea that hell as it is currently perceived by the church doesn't exist, what if he was giving his own personal idea of hell that wasn't a strictly Catholic one, but the journalist would have been motivated to not add this for the sake of sensationalism.

Anything could have been said in their conversation, you might have written "Pope denies existence of hell and Satan" if you were the journalist, doesn't mean that's what he said.

It's hard enough to figure things out when you're being objective, let alone when your view is coloured by your own personal upbringing and conditioning.

I think there is much of value in Christianity, as well as much that is merely others opinion. Being objective can help to separate the wheat from the chaff.

I don't ' wish ' the Pope denied hell or satan, I personally don't care, I use my own common sense regarding nonsensical teachings.

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

What if the understanding of hell is just tweaked. From reading NDE accounts hell seems like darkness and mean spiritedness and aridity because there is no light or living water there. Numerous NDE accounts say that just saying the name of Jesus is enough to take them away from there.

I don't believe in hell or satan regardless of what others say.

[django]

Originally Posted by sky123

I don't ' wish ' the Pope denied hell or satan, I personally don't care, I use my own common sense regarding nonsensical teachings.

You said "It's about time someone in authority spoke up about these Medieval beliefs." I assumed from this that you cared whether this comment was made.

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

You said "It's about time someone in authority spoke up about these Medieval beliefs." I assumed from this that you cared whether this comment was made.

Best not to assume

If the Pope believes there is no hell or satan then he should speak out as a lot of Roman Catholics are tormented by these teachings and take the Churches words to be true, it would ease a lot of pain and suffering fot some followers.
Pope Francis has altered the Lords Prayer ( The Our Father ) and it now makes more sense, they have also also denied the biblical teachings on Infant Baptism which is another nonsensical teaching which causes pain for Parents.

It doesn't make any difference to me what the Pope believes or doesn't believe, I don't care as it doesn't effect my life but I do feel sad for others who take the Churches word as the truth and suffer.

[django]

Originally Posted by sky123

Best not to assume

If the Pope believes there is no hell or satan then he should speak out as a lot of Roman Catholics are tormented by these teachings and take the Churches words to be true, it would ease a lot of pain and suffering fot some followers.
Pope Francis has altered the Lords Prayer ( The Our Father ) and it now makes more sense, they have also also denied the biblical teachings on Infant Baptism which is another nonsensical teaching which causes pain for Parents.

It doesn't make any difference to me what the Pope believes or doesn't believe, I don't care as it doesn't effect my life but I do feel sad for others who take the Churches word as the truth and suffer.

You're better informed about these things than I am, this and the pope's 'hell doesn't exist' comment were both news to me.

So I googled it, and I found that Pope Francis in relation to the changes has specifically suggested "Let us not fall into temptation, but deliver us from the Evil One."

His issue was that the present version sounds like God leads us into temptation, whereas Pope Francis wants to make it very clear, and I quote, “The one who leads us into temptation is Satan,” the pope said. “That’s Satan’s job.”
https://www.americamagazine.org/fait...nge-our-father

You might not care what the Pope does or doesn't believe, but factually he clearly does believe in Satan.

[django]

I just googled your other claim, that " they have also also denied the biblical teachings on Infant Baptism which is another nonsensical teaching which causes pain for Parents."

Apparently, on 11th April 2018, Pope Francis had this to say about infant baptism:

Pope Francis spoke about the sacrament of Baptism on Wednesday, emphasizing the importance of the Catholic practice of baptizing infants, since the grace of the Holy Spirit helps them to grow in virtue.

“Why baptize a child who does not understand?” the pope asked April 11. “When we baptize a child, the Holy Spirit enters that child, and the Holy Spirit makes... the Christian virtues grow in that child, who will then flourish...”

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...cis-says-21010

Where are you getting your information from?

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

I just googled your other claim, that " they have also also denied the biblical teachings on Infant Baptism which is another nonsensical teaching which causes pain for Parents."

Apparently, on 11th April 2018, Pope Francis had this to say about infant baptism:

Pope Francis spoke about the sacrament of Baptism on Wednesday, emphasizing the importance of the Catholic practice of baptizing infants, since the grace of the Holy Spirit helps them to grow in virtue.

“Why baptize a child who does not understand?” the pope asked April 11. “When we baptize a child, the Holy Spirit enters that child, and the Holy Spirit makes... the Christian virtues grow in that child, who will then flourish...”

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/n...cis-says-21010

Where are you getting your information from?

My info:comes from the Vatican Website ' Catechism of the Catholic Church ' regarding Baptism of babies. At one time the Roman Catholics were taught that a baby who died without recieving the sacrament of Baptism went to hell, then it was altered to limbo instead of hell. The bible teaches that non can enter the kingdom of heaven wihout being Baptised. What a ridiculous statement that causes so much pain for Parents, thankfully some are using common sense regarding superstitious beliefs nowadays.

[django]

Originally Posted by sky123

My info:comes from the Vatican Website ' Catechism of the Catholic Church ' regarding Baptism of babies. At one time the Roman Catholics were taught that a baby who died without recieving the sacrament of Baptism went to hell, then it was altered to limbo instead of hell. The bible teaches that non can enter the kingdom of heaven wihout being Baptised. What a ridiculous statement that causes so much pain for Parents, thankfully some are using common sense regarding superstitious beliefs nowadays.

I didn't know any of these details, my interest is in Jesus and various things he says in the bible, things like infant baptism and various other Catholic doctrines aren't really relevant to me.

I understand that some people might have been distressed by catholic doctrines, but it's not something that has been of particular interest to me previously, and I'm not very interested in examining Catholic doctrine and justifying it.

That really is 'churchianity' as Jonesboy's article called it, and the chaff of Christianity, but I'm not about to chuck the baby out with the bathwater, so Jesus remains relevant to me, and catholic doctrine remains largely irrelevant to me.

If Christianity or Catholicism has affected you negatively I'm sorry to hear that, I can only hope you might forgive the church and appreciate the Jesus story itself one day without church trappings. Or not

[barrynu]

A little about Heaven and Hell and Satan....(my view)

My view is that Satan is not an individual entity.Satan is Temptation away from peace,happiness and grace(God).This temptation is choice,its the freewill God gave us to walk with God or go it alone.
You can be born into a life where all of your peers are walking their path without God and life is very hard and cruel,,,, this does not seem like a choice but bigger things were at work that put you in there,,,things like karma and soul choice for different experiences.

My view on Hell is that it is not a place for the bad but its an individual place created by ourself.
We can create our own Hell here on earth by the choices we make and the actions we take or the actions we fail to take.

When we die we do not change much...we do not have a body but our consciousness is pretty much the same except that we now understand that we are much more than human,we realise that we are so much more.
We are also opened up so much more, that our emotions are most of what we are and not our body as we used to think while on earth.These emotions are what determine if we are in heaven or hell

We see our life(lives) on earth clearly and if we have hurt others others by our action/inactions and intentions...This hurts US now deeply as we are much more open and we create our own singular private Hell.
In our private Hell we go over everything and feel everything we did to others.Pain,Torment,Wanting,Needing,Loneliness.... ....You are in Hell!.........,eventually we will find balance and the power to make a choice again...we can choose to go higher to heaven/another realm of existence if you think you can handle it or back to Earth and have another go,,,it will be your choice.

Satan and Hell exist but not the way we have been thaught by our ancient books because we are advancing and evolving and we do not think the same way we did thousands of years ago.

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

I didn't know any of these details, my interest is in Jesus and various things he says in the bible, things like infant baptism and various other Catholic doctrines aren't really relevant to me.

I understand that some people might have been distressed by catholic doctrines, but it's not something that has been of particular interest to me previously, and I'm not very interested in examining Catholic doctrine and justifying it.

That really is 'churchianity' as Jonesboy's article called it, and the chaff of Christianity, but I'm not about to chuck the baby out with the bathwater, so Jesus remains relevant to me, and catholic doctrine remains largely irrelevant to me.

If Christianity or Catholicism has affected you negatively I'm sorry to hear that, I can only hope you might forgive the church and appreciate the Jesus story itself one day without church trappings. Or not

It doesn't effect me at all, I take no notice of nonsensical teachings but I do feel sadness for those I know who are deeply affected. We had friends who allowed their baby Son to bleed to death rather than have a blood transfusion after a road traffic accident, so sad. They put jw's beliefs as more important than their beautiful baby. But each to their own.....