How do you lift the amnesia? How do you 'awaken from your sleep'?

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Apologies for what is perhaps a poor choice of words given the euphemism for dying.
And we don’t need to get into any philosophical discussion about how spiritual life is a kind of death of worldly life.
So rather…

invoke God/Highest-Self/Supreme Being would be the appropriate response.

And that leads to the following:

One would think that accessing the super-conscious would be superior to the subconscious as a primary resource for obvious reasons. I’m always mystified that, given the choice (as both are fully available and accessible), people who are awakening would choose the subconscious as the most effective means, which doesn’t make too much sense.

The reason being that the subconscious is the repository of all the residuals of previous earthly experience: thoughts, emotions, attachments, desires, reactions, weakness, and imperfection; all of the darkness, falsehood, obscurity, and confusion of long past accumulated experience - all of which are constantly arising and seeking expression in the being from the subconscious.

This is why old bad habits are hard to break (another kind of cessation or death), and why it is difficult to form new, better, or superior ones…which gets into why discipline is key in any progressive intention, but especially spiritual.

These are the distortions, limited partial expressions, and failed approximations of what is also always seeking expression as the pressure of light descending from higher planes per the divine Will/Vision for the evolution of Life in the physical, from the super-conscious but poorly received and expressed due to that intrinsic conditional obscure resistance (ignorance/darkness) of the physical plane.

It goes without saying that God/Highest Self/Supreme Being would be represented (obviously) by what is super-conscient in contradistinction to sub-conscient. Both may be SUBLIMINAL in the being as in, not consciously aware of - but they are significantly different, coming from different ‘directions’ so-to-speak, which represents a valuable distinction to be discerned and utilized in spiritual practice.

This is why spiritual progression is a more difficult, arduous, tedious, and confusing proposition for many who don’t have, admit, or allow that ideal form or means of invocation due to their constructs and beliefs that limit those possibilities inherently, and are typically anti-spiritual, confused (“we need to express our dark side” etc.), some atheists (‘no God’ because rejecting historical connotations which are part of the same subconscious phenomenon but collective), intellectuals who think (per the dynamic circularity of mind) that the answer is “eliminating all belief” (which is a belief!) - the list goes on.

Suffice it to say that a devotion to the Ideal - and the conscious deliberate regular sincere invocation of it - is the most expedient form of progression which does not exclude other means, but rather enhances them.


As to putting aside expectation, yes. Expectation is inherently a falsehood, an attachment to desire that must lead to disappointment and frustration.

As to putting aside beliefs: then you are dead. Beliefs are simply mental/intellectual constructs of (for spiritual practice) higher ideals or faith, ineffable in their native experience, but expressible in some form, even though a limited or distorted approximation in and through the mind which is itself limited. In other words, it is the mind's inherent limitations that are problematic in describing or expressing ideals - not necessarily any intrinsic deficiency of the ideal or real-idea itself, notably and importantly, if that ideal is Supreme Being. This is similar and related to the sub/superconscious distinction, and just as important.

It is belief that allows human beings to practice and test in-and-through direct experience, what can only be theoretical otherwise, which is why so many proponents of various intellectual exclusions always seem confused: they never resolve anything except their own adamant disbelief, which typically manifests as incessant doubt, suspicion, skepticism, and even cynicism.


jmo-fwiw

~ J

Thanks for your reply. I kind of already have an idea of your beliefs, and as your reply is so long, I'll have to skip reading it. We'll have to agree to disagree. Please don't take this personal, by I don't read long posts.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by inavalan

Thanks for your reply. I kind of already have an idea of your beliefs, and as your reply is so long, I'll have to skip reading it. We'll have to agree to disagree. Please don't take this personal, by I don't read long posts.

Briefly speaking in deference to your preference:

No problem inavalan.
Thanks for your intellectual honesty and rigor!
Fyi, not taken personally.

~ J

[Miss Hepburn]

~J - I read your long posts!

:) "...which gets into why discipline is key in any progressive intention, but especially spiritual."

"...devotion to the Ideal - and the conscious, deliberate, regular, sincere invocation of it - is the most expedient
form of progression ..."
.......................................
We differ here: "As to putting aside expectation, yes. Expectation is inherently a falsehood,
an attachment to desire that must lead to disappointment and frustration..."

I 'expect' when I plant corn I get corn...desire and expecting something to 'come into being' is a basis of
the way I live my life, see?
And I must say with a big smile - so far so good.

Believe and receive...Believe you already have what you have asked for. Been living that for over 4 decades now.

[Jyotir]

Hi MH,

Like many discussion here, this gets into nuances of meanings and definitions.

The key distinction would be as to whether the “desire” as exemplified by the expectation is representing a spiritual aspiration, which by nature would be more closely aligned with God’s Will (e.g., God’s expectation!) and therefore not really qualified as desire per se in that case.

The reason expectation is generally problematic and therefore a caution in spiritual life, is that more often than not, it is originating in and bound by the ignorant parts of being: ego-mind, desire-mind, etc. (which is fine for a worldly life). As such this simply leads into more ignorance and frustration even if fulfilled, but especially problematic if not fulfilled, because that leads often to destructive reactions. Otherwise one may ask for anything and get it sooner or later, but is it what God wants for that particular life?

This is something all aspirants have to reckon with, but in this regard, someone who has an established a consecrated spiritual life and is consciously sincerely aspiring does receive more protection and guidance BECAUSE of their devotion.

~ J

Jyotir,

Pay less importance to your ill conceived self contrived importance and more to finding self.

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by iamthat

How do we awaken from our sleep?

This was a central theme of Gurdjieff:

Man is immersed in dreams... He lives in sleep… He is a machine. He cannot stop the flow of his thoughts, he cannot control his imagination, his emotions, his attention... He does not see the real world. The real world is hidden from him by the wall of imagination.

In order to awaken, first of all one must realize that one is in a state of sleep. And in order to realize that one is indeed in a state of sleep, one must recognize and fully understand the nature of the forces which operate to keep one in the state of sleep, or hypnosis. It is absurd to think that this can be done by seeking information from the very source which induces the hypnosis.
....One thing alone is certain, that man's slavery grows and increases. Man is becoming a willing slave. He no longer needs chains. He begins to grow fond of his slavery, to be proud of it. And this is the most terrible thing that can happen to a man.

Awakening is possible only for those who seek it and want it, for those who are ready to struggle with themselves and work on themselves for a very long time and very persistently in order to attain it.

So how do we wake up? From beingpresent.org

Self-remembering is the central idea of the Fourth Way. In Gurdjieff’s cosmology, the birthright of a human being is to be awake but the psychological condition of sleep prevents it. Because of this condition, humanity is uninterested in awakening, and if a human-being discovers they are ‘asleep’, they will find an excuse to forget or deny it. So Gurdjieff taught self-remembering as an experiment to demonstrate its value and as a way of life. He taught his students the difference between being ‘asleep’ and being ‘awake’. He taught self-remembering as a continual, practical effort, bringing one’s attention to one’s Self at the same time as the activity that one is engaged in.

Peace

Great sayings by Gurdjieff. I would say this sums up my own viewpoints on this thread.

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

The reason being that the subconscious is the repository of all the residuals of previous earthly experience: thoughts, emotions, attachments, desires, reactions, weakness, and imperfection; all of the darkness, falsehood, obscurity, and confusion of long past accumulated experience - all of which are constantly arising and seeking expression in the being from the subconscious.

This is why old bad habits are hard to break (another kind of cessation or death), and why it is difficult to form new, better, or superior ones…which gets into why discipline is key in any progressive intention, but especially spiritual.

I agree that discipline is key to breaking the momentum of these old habits and I would also add conscious enjoyment of the process to it as well. Regular sadhana or spiritual exercise can be a hard grind at times, and unless one consciously enjoy the process of breaking bad habits, it is quite possible that one may wear down and succumb to the chain of bad habits again through indulgence.


When you are enthusiastic, the mountain also looks like a clay pile. – Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj

You never wear down in anything as long as you enjoy doing it. ~ Sachin Tendulkar

[Jyotir]

Good points Ajay00.

It’s often that people mistakenly associate a dour somber disposition with dedicated spiritual practice.

Rather, a cheerful enthusiasm is by far a more useful expedient and yet is not antithetical to serenity/equanimity but enhances it. Spirit is inherently dynamism and delight.

Many of the long-time Buddhist, Christian, and practitioners in other traditions I have known were clearly very cheerful, happy, and enthusiastic people - embodying both as an attitude for, and result of practice.


~ J

[Unseeking Seeker]

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How do you lift the amnesia? How do you 'awaken from your sleep'?

Ah! A topic of relevance. I recollect raising this somewhere earlier on SF but the inquiry didn’t really find takers at that time. Just saw this ... don’t visit the Hinduism section much. Miss H can probably tell us why she wanted to post this here rather than say, Spiritual Development or Meditation sections. But no matter ...

Amnesia. Meaning self forgetting Self. Remembrance through recognition then is the key.

We, being in amnesia, even knowing that it is so, having read about the truth in scriptures or hearing from others ... how may we awake? By awakening, let’s say a modest first step towards connecting with our own divinity within.

Connection implies that we feel, as in really feeeeel. No room for thought here then, thought always being out of sync with the now continuum and hence inducing amnesia.

As Miss H says, meditation. Yes. But to begin with, there are real difficulties. With our thoughts and attention externalised ... well, our senses too are externalised, no wonder meditation is talked about but quite often replaced by concentration. The exercise, so to speak becomes counterproductive.

To awake from amnesia then, I’d say, we begin with ... in fact, continue even later, breaking conditioned patterns. First deliberately. Then, allowing ourselves to be surprised becomes our orientation. An orientation of spontaneity. Speaking of which, meditation should be our default orientation. The moment we ritualise it ... well, who’s the doer doing as in meditator meditating?

Inavalan has already cautioned against long posts! There is more to be said but for now, I’ll leave this preamble here for review. We can get to recognition next.

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[inavalan]

Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker

***

[b]...

Inavalan has already cautioned against long posts! There is more to be said but for now, I’ll leave this preamble here for review. We can get to recognition next.

***

Sorry. It wasn't a caution. I thought to help those who mightn't be aware that there is a potential audience they miss, because of long, or less structured posts.