Making Allowances for Vegetarians/Vegans

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by DebbyM

My problem is with Europeans and North Americans and Asians, who eat meat in the amounts that 'we' think we are entitled to.

Now we're talking!
''the amounts..'' < Now it's getting more specific.

Originally Posted by DebbyM

Now of course that is a bit of a generalization, but the fact is that meat consumption has tripled in the last 60 years or so and the prediction is that overall, world meat consumption will increase by 50% in the next twenty years. Not only is that far more protein than is necessary for healthful living, but the effects on the environment will be horrendous. What do you expect that to do to the environment? The amount of pesticides, herbicides and antibiotics that will find its way into the water system and into your bodies will increase exponentially.

People can change, all the predictions are saying what will happen.... if we don't change..
That's why all predictions fail.. I should be swimming in my house according to some.

For starters.. a transition from cattle farms to chicken farms would be welcoming, and healthier. And what about.. insect farms? Spread the word..

Originally Posted by DebbyM

It is only unfortunate that while we are getting what we want, everything else, from the oceans and the rivers, to the polar bears and wolves, to the children coming along behind us will be the beneficiaries of the world that we are creating.

The oceans can be 'purified'.. many rivers in EU are already cleaner than in the past. Wolves are increasing their numbers in various countries, also in the USA. The Indian rhinoceros has healthy numbers now, was almost extinct a century ago. More and more people are thinking about animal rights. This was almost impossible a century ago! There are possibilities.. it's not all doom.. There is hope! But yes.. as the population keeps increasing, there will also be more people who don't care..

Originally Posted by WhiteShaman

Ha!
In addition, I don't intentionally kill anything , including bugs so that probably makes me a Buddhist ovo-lacto vegetarian! LOL

Not to pick an argument here, but......what do you think happens to all the calves that are intentionally born so that you can have your cheese and ice cream and then there are all the hens living in abysmal conditions for the sake of your omlettes. They don't die immediately (unless the farmer smashes the calves with a hammer) but they do die for the sake of human appetite.

Actually Chrysaetos, you are the only one who brought up 'poverty' specifically. I only pointed out that the starving masses could find their hunger abated if only a portion of land used to produce animal feeds was used to produce human foods that were then sent their way instead of being used to provide feed for animals to feed North Americans and Europeans, etc. What's more, you also were the one who made reference to people having children as a result of not having to deal with daily, grinding hunger. That sounds an awful lot like using starvation to control population.

Do you drink coffee and tea, eat rice, use palm oil? If you re-read my post, you will see that I did not say that veg'ns don't do those things, but that there are more of 'your sort' who do and so your sort are MORE responsible than my sort simply by virtue of numbers. Meat animals simply cause more environmental damage than plant agriculture.

Yes oceans could be purified, if we had the will to make changes. Based on what we've been discussing here, I don't see that happening, at least as far as your food is concerned. Food is 'the sacred cow' (pardon the pun). As for wolves, their numbers dwindled because of hunting, then they were reintroduced to their old territories and now there is once again, open season on them in several states and they will again be hunted to the edge of extinction and all for the sake of ranchers and hunters. For 'love of biodiversity' is a red herring that means nothing when it comes to 'love of the almighty burger'.

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by DebbyM

Actually Chrysaetos, you are the only one who brought up 'poverty' specifically. I only pointed out that the starving masses could find their hunger abated if only a portion of land used to produce animal feeds was used to produce human foods that were then sent their way instead of being used to provide feed for animals to feed North Americans and Europeans, etc.

Yes we can feed them, and that is good.. but it is short term. It doesn't solve it.. that's my point..

Originally Posted by DebbyM

What's more, you also were the one who made reference to people having children as a result of not having to deal with daily, grinding hunger. That sounds an awful lot like using starvation to control population.

I don't follow this..
People take kids so they don't have to deal with hunger??

Originally Posted by DebbyM

If you re-read my post, you will see that I did not say that veg'ns don't do those things, but that there are more of 'your sort' who do and so your sort are MORE responsible than my sort simply by virtue of numbers.

It's about what individuals choose.. There is no ''THE meat eater'' or ''THE vegetarian''.
A meater who eats local fish and deer is more forest-friendly than the vegan who consumes palm oil and rice. That is only one example.
There are many other possibilities, sometimes in favour of the meat eater, other times in favour of the vegetarian.

It's about specifics..

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by DebbyM

As for wolves, their numbers dwindled because of hunting, then they were reintroduced to their old territories and now there is once again, open season on them in several states and they will again be hunted to the edge of extinction and all for the sake of ranchers and hunters. For 'love of biodiversity' is a red herring that means nothing when it comes to 'love of the almighty burger'.

10000 years ago your place was an icy waste. Now your country has greened.
Some species died out, others came. Back then there were many large pleistocene mammals. Their extinction meant good news for the trees. So it's a matter of perspective.

Every species has once been an invader.
Sure, I prefer wolves too.. but the situation is not an easy one. Wolves are very successful predators.. clashes with humans are inevitable. What is your solution?

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by DebbyM

Not to pick an argument here, but......what do you think happens to all the calves that are intentionally born so that you can have your cheese and ice cream and then there are all the hens living in abysmal conditions for the sake of your omlettes. They don't die immediately (unless the farmer smashes the calves with a hammer) but they do die for the sake of human appetite.

Hi DebbyM
I am aware that there are plenty of injustices like you mention that I am not aware of.
I do, however, recognize that I am doing the best I can right now but I am always open to change within that motivates me in other directions.
I do recognize the need for balance though and being made aware of all that is wrong with the world does not make me feel the need to act on them all.
With what I do do, I am not trying to win any humanitian prizes or change the world. Those can be pleasant side effects but my reall intent is to be true to myself and myself feels what it feels where it does and acts accordingly.
Thanks for raising awareness but there are other ways to deal with such things which may even be more effective than obstaining .............I would think.
Organic? Petitioning such hatcheries? writing articles in local newspapers?
Blessings, James

Thats a great point. I was trying to head in that direction by mentioning permaculture.... sustainable gardening.

I think lots of it has to do with understanding that we will NEVER be perfect. There is no way to stop all horrific acts to animals, unless that is brought by social change, which is done by induviduals.

We can only do the best we can. Im not perfect, I make mistakes, and yes cause some harm ( which is incidental in nature). The best thing we can do is concsiously do as less harm as we possibly can. Im slowly trying to suggest to the fellow gardeners I know to practice sustainable gardening, not just grow your food or ornamentals. Planting a garden is great, but realisticly, lots of habitat was lost so yuou can buy and grow those hybrid tea roses. Building a sistanable efficiant hosue is great, but trees wouldve died for lumber, or bamboo cut down. Even to erect a glass hosue, the land has to be cleared soemwhat, and the glass was made of sand, that had billions of organisms in it......

But when we clear that land, and replace it with species of plants that will rebuild that destroyed habitat, the harm is lessened. WHen we grow msot of our own food, the harm is lessened. When we use timber from that property to build the hosue, the harm is lessened.

And why follow what other people are doing? We need to lead and teach people how to lead not to follow. This is leading by example. The suggestions James made are good. WHy not get some neighbors together and grow a community food garden? You have a great climate in NS for grapes and fruit crops!

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by Time

But when we clear that land, and replace it with species of plants that will rebuild that destroyed habitat, the harm is lessened. WHen we grow msot of our own food, the harm is lessened. When we use timber from that property to build the hosue, the harm is lessened.

And why follow what other people are doing? We need to lead and teach people how to lead not to follow. This is leading by example. The suggestions James made are good. WHy not get some neighbors together and grow a community food garden? You have a great climate in NS for grapes and fruit crops!

All good options on a personal/local lvl.

But being the realist that I am, I have to mention that the majority of our population lives in the big cities. They have no space (and perhaps no time and no desire) to have their own (food) gardens. And if anything.. urbanisation is only increasing, not just in the poor countries but also here in Europe.. the countryside is 'ageing'..

We live in a system of centrality..

Youd be suprised at what you can grow in a small area. The main thiing to try to do is to take the focus ut of the forests and natural areas, and let the areas in teh citys grow food. Rooftops, patios, barren land. In a 10 foot sq area, you can grow enogh greens and radish to feed you for 4 months.

But as i said its a social problem, as you mentioned people not wanting to grow their own food for instance. But there is also a resurgance of a horticulture in our cities. For instance, if i remember the right numbers. IF cenral park was turned into a permaculture food forest, it could feed more then 1/3 o the city, and tats still leaving most of the plants that are already there ( less harm remember?)

Off hand i have about a 70x 20 foot area planted. This incloded some veggies, but also 2 lilac trees, a russian olive, and a small apple seedling. Im waiting for a plum tree, apricot and im going to espalier ( grow against a wall) a pear tree. I still have lawn, a deck ad a large garage. I also got grapes, flowers, and even tropicals up here!

ITs easy to do, its just the matter of peole being WILING to do it.

Can you imagine the money the community would get for a surplus of 7 tons of almonds?? Thats what a permaculture community sells on average a year in surplus almonds, not including the other nut, fruit berry ushes and trees and annual veggies, eggs, chese and meat, ANd thats including enoguh food for themselves.

All it takes if for 2 or 3 people to follow suit, and them more will, and eventualy it should spread far enough to make a difference. But once again, thats depending on the willingness of us.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Sure, I prefer wolves too.. but the situation is not an easy one. Wolves are very successful predators.. clashes with humans are inevitable.

The wolves in the disputed area you are talking about are not being shot for the sake of hunting. It was allowed again because these wolves are too close to the community and are attacking humans and their pets. They also raid the garbage like coyotes and make off with farm animals.