Making Allowances for Vegetarians/Vegans

Originally Posted by mattie

This should be no different than dealing w/ guests who might have food allergies, restricted diets for medical reasons such as salt restrictions, or just have particular tastes. For instance, many are allergic to seafood. Or don’t like any level of spice in their food.

If the host is a carnivore w/ vegan guests it seems to be a very easy problem to solve w/ preparing an extra nonmeat side dish or 2 so the vegan has enough choices. I wouldn’t feel obligated to have to purge meat from the menu even if half the guests were vegan.

A vegan guest at a carnivore host’s dinner party should use the same grace that anyone would when encountering any dish that one wasn’t fond of or couldn't eat for whatever reason. Just avoid it, move the food around on the plate, & don’t make a big deal about it. Or bring one’s own food, asking the host if this will be OK before the dinner & DON’T make a big deal about it if it isn’t OK. If it is so objectionable that a particular dish would be served at a party that it would be a big issue, then the person attending should inquire about the menu in advance & send a polite generic RSVP declining.

Likewise, a vegan host could prepare a meatless meal & I would expect the carnivore guest to have the good manners to not cause a big stink about meat not being on the menu. I wouldn’t be offended at a vegan not preparing a meat dish as I would prefer them to prepare tasty dishes they were familiar w/ & skilled at rather than attempting an unfamiliar dish that might not be successful!

What diet one consumes may have a moral component for various reasons including religious ones, but for one to foist that morality on others is inappropriate.
Tolerance.

Totally agree with you on all points.

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by DebbyM

Chrysaetos (note the spelling), if you have eaten something before you came to my house that is not my problem is it and I never said it was. What I said was, I don't want meat and dairy products brought to my house with the expectation that I will cook or serve them. It's my house. Why is that so hard for you to accept?

That is understandable Debbie. My example was if I brought a little sandwich with me.. let's say I just ate it in a few seconds.. the last bits. Or a tiny milk chocolate? Is that a problem?

Originally Posted by DebbyM

No, your piece of fruit for breakfast doesn't make you a vegan. A vegan is an individual who makes an effort to never intentionally cause harm to another sentient being.

That's one definition!
There can also be vegans who don't care about the animals and just do it for other reasons. Don't know what that could be.. maybe for religious reasons.
Or someone may be a vegan because there is no other food available, and they may not do it for the animals.. so are they no longer vegan? Their diet says they are.

Originally Posted by Scibat

I agree with the underlined part 110%. Well said!

See my problem with many vegans is this, the onus is always on the meat eater to accommodate. If the vegan comes over, the meat eater is expected to create extra veggie dishes, at the very least, for the vegan (but more often expected to serve no meat at all).

On the other side of the coin, the meat eater is expected to go to a vegan's home and only be served vegetarian dishes.

Using myself as an example, I am on a special diet (Atkins) which requires the intake of lots of meats, cheeses, and low carb foods. If I were to visit a Vegan, or they me, with this knowledge, shared between us, would it not be just as rude for the vegan to not be willing to accommodate me as well? I am not saying they would have to go out and slaughter an animal for my dinner. But no cheese? Really? Gimme a freaking break.

Justify it as you need, but the whole situation seems to boil down to: Many vegans, seem to be of the notion that their lifestyle is more valid and more important than that of people who eat meat, and therefore they should be given deference. And frankly I don't buy into that mentality at all.

How many vegans have invited you to dinner or vice versa that you can make these kinds of statements with surety?

As for your special Atkins diet, well if I invited you over to dinner and you didn't want to eat the delicious food that I prepared, then you have the option of declining and instead suggest that sometime we can just get together for coffee (if my company was at all interesting to you). I actually think many of the comments here are generalized big time, just to prove personal biases.

Because we (vegans) are so few in number, I, who am a vegan, know only one who happens to be my daughter. She in turn has a passing aquaintance with only one vegan. You folks talk like you are getting invitations from vegan hords and they all do and say the same things and they are all just as biased and self-interested in what is being served to them by everyone else, as you are. Amazing, where are these hords of vegans hiding?

My daughter would never expect anyone to prepare a special meal for her because of her choices and like me, is quick to say so.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

That is understandable Debbie. My example was if I brought a little sandwich with me.. let's say I just ate it in a few seconds.. the last bits. Or a tiny milk chocolate? Is that a problem? That's one definition!
There can also be vegans who don't care about the animals and just do it for other reasons. Don't know what that could be.. maybe for religious reasons.
Or someone may be a vegan because there is no other food available, and they may not do it for the animals.. so are they no longer vegan? Their diet says they are.

I'm not going to inspect your sandwich dear. Nor am I going to check the label on your chocolate. But the original question had to do with whether or not vegans should 'have' to provide meat based dishes when inviting people like you over to their houses. The concensus from many of you is that 'it's only fair'. Well it's not fair of you to expect me to go against every fibre of my being and provide food that has come at the price of cruelty to an animal.

THE definition of what is a vegan:

"The term "vegan" was coined in England in 1944 by Donald Watson, co-founder of the British Vegan Society, to mean "non-dairy vegetarian"; the society also opposed the use of eggs as food.[2] It extended its definition in 1951 to mean "the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals," and in 1960 H. Jay Dinshah started the American Vegan Society, linking the movement to the Jainist concept of ahimsa, the avoidance of violence against living things."

Whether you like it or not it's our club and so our definition is really the only one that counts .
There are 'dietary' vegans which means they simply eschew animal products from their plates but are perfectly happy to wear bits and pieces of their tortured bodies, etc., so in a sense technically (?) you could say that they are just folks who don't eat animal stuff and aren't 'real' vegans.

[Chrysaetos]

Originally Posted by DebbyM

The concensus from many of you is that 'it's only fair'. Well it's not fair of you to expect me to go against every fibre of my being and provide food that has come at the price of cruelty to an animal.

Well I have said that it's okay if a vegan or vegetarian refuses a meal with meat.
And I'm also okay with vegans or vegetarians making a non-meat meal for others. We all have our vegetarian meals so it's no big deal.

Originally Posted by DebbyM

THE definition of what is a vegan:
"The term "vegan" was coined in England in 1944 by Donald Watson, co-founder of the British Vegan Society, to mean "non-dairy vegetarian"; the society also opposed the use of eggs as food.[2] It extended its definition in 1951 to mean "the doctrine that man should live without exploiting animals," and in 1960 H. Jay Dinshah started the American Vegan Society, linking the movement to the Jainist concept of ahimsa, the avoidance of violence against living things."

There is no THE definition...
Words are a plaything and can be defined in many ways. We know this with simple words like 'bank' and with more heavy words like 'religion'.

Originally Posted by DebbyM

Whether you like it or not it's our club and so our definition is really the only one that counts .
There are 'dietary' vegans which means they simply eschew animal products from their plates but are perfectly happy to wear bits and pieces of their tortured bodies, etc., so in a sense technically (?) you could say that they are just folks who don't eat animal stuff and aren't 'real' vegans.

I disagree...

I eat chicken so you may call me an average meat eater, or a pollo-pescetarian, or a vegetarian who eats chicken (like someone else here said).
But if you are going to define my diet you are entering my club..!

For you a vegan is one who does not exploit animals.. I don't believe that. Do you drink tea (link) ? Eat rice (link) ? Bananas? There is exploitation..

Originally Posted by DebbyM

You know Scibat, you meet all sorts of people as you go through life and every person has a 'sensitivity' issue if you know what I mean. And I'm sure that deep down inside you, there is something that makes you squirm. If I knew you and knew what your painful spot was, I would never dig at it. I guess you and I are different people aren't we? And one more time I've been handed the lesson on expectations and disappointment.

The one good thing about the kind of remarks that you make is that I've been forced to evolve in some ways and for that I'm grateful. Thanks.

First off:

I have never met someone so sensitive, that the mentioning of what a person was having for a snack or a meal would be painful to them. That sounds a little, ridiculous, to put it politely.

Second:

If its so painful for you, then sharing such things on the internet, and publicly on a forum isn't perhaps the wisest choice. As far as anything else goes, you can assume (as I am sure you have) whatever you like about me.

The bottom line is:

I find it grossly unfair that some vegans expect to be treated like delicate and unique snowflakes while in the same breath treating meat eaters like devolved neanderthals and refuse to offer any sort of accommodation to them whatsoever.

As to your later comment about being invited to a vegan's home, those remarks where again directed back at the OP:

I watch a TV programme call 'Come Dine with Me'. It involves four strangers hosting a dinner party for four consecutive nights. All for each other.

What I've noticed is that if one of the four is a vegetarian or vegan, the host prepares an alternative for that guest (which I deem fair and proper).

However, come the night of the vegetarian/vegan, the food hardly ever (never) involves meat.

Not only do the carnivores have to work harder at pleasing the guests, they also have to go without meat when the vegetarian/vegan hosts.

Is that normal? Is it lop-sided....because it seems so to me.

Again, I have to agree. It's very lopsided.

[Silver]

I don't see how it's going to 'kill' any carnivorous person to eat the odd vegan or vegetarian meal prepared by an acquaintance or friend. It's not like they're never going to see meat again, more than likely they'll be back at their mickieD's or BBQ Bill Grill within the next 24-48. But there is something unfairly pc how some vegans/vegetarians portray meat eaters. If you are a vegan / vegetarian and truly don't wish to offend someone who doesn't happen to have your path/way of eating and not harshly judge them, then you might want to bend a bit and find ways around the fact that you can't or won't eat meat, etc. without creating friction or draw unwarranted attention to the fact that you're vegan / vegetarian. Getting together for a meal should be a happy time, no matter what's on your plate or in your bowl.

Originally Posted by Silvergirl

I don't see how it's going to 'kill' any carnivorous person to eat the odd vegan or vegetarian meal prepared by an acquaintance or friend. It's not like they're never going to see meat again, more than likely they'll be back at their mickieD's or BBQ Bill Grill within the next 24-48. But there is something unfairly pc how some vegans/vegetarians portray meat eaters. If you are a vegan / vegetarian and truly don't wish to offend someone who doesn't happen to have your path/way of eating and not harshly judge them, then you might want to bend a bit and find ways around the fact that you can't or won't eat meat, etc. without creating friction or draw unwarranted attention to the fact that you're vegan / vegetarian. Getting together for a meal should be a happy time, no matter what's on your plate or in your bowl.

I agree entirely Silver. I would have no problem eating a vegan meal with a friend if they asked me to, provided they weren't the sort that portrayed meat eaters in a negative light. In fact before I went on my current diet I had a lovely vegetarian meal at an Indian restaurant, where I had my first pimosa.

I also agree with your point about meal gatherings being happy occasions, but it would be difficult for me to to feel happy or comfortable if I felt I was being judged negatively for my choice to enjoy meat (whether I ate any their presence or not). Sadly, in my own experience, many vegans seem to be the very judgmental sort you mentioned, the exceptions usually being those that are vegan for medical reasons.

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Well I have said that it's okay if a vegan or vegetarian refuses a meal with meat.
And I'm also okay with vegans or vegetarians making a non-meat meal for others. We all have our vegetarian meals so it's no big deal.
There is no THE definition...
Words are a plaything and can be defined in many ways. We know this with simple words like 'bank' and with more heavy words like 'religion'.
I disagree...

I eat chicken so you may call me an average meat eater, or a pollo-pescetarian, or a vegetarian who eats chicken (like someone else here said).
But if you are going to define my diet you are entering my club..!

For you a vegan is one who does not exploit animals.. I don't believe that. Do you drink tea (link) ? Eat rice (link) ? Bananas? There is exploitation..

People always say things like that when they don't like the answer. THE definition previously mentioned is still the one chosen by the folks who first formalised the concept and it has since been accepted by people of like mind. Call it whatever you want, a vegan is still someone who chooses not to engage in violence towards animals. What was that saying of Shakespeares? "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" or "a vegan by any other name is still a person who chooses to avoid violence against living things".

And if you eat chicken, you are not a vegetarian.

Yes sadly, it is impossible to avoid causing suffering 100%. But I at least try not to be the intentional cause of it. You on the other hand..........

Originally Posted by Scibat

First off:

I have never met someone so sensitive, that the mentioning of what a person was having for a snack or a meal would be painful to them. That sounds a little, ridiculous, to put it politely.

Second:

If its so painful for you, then sharing such things on the internet, and publicly on a forum isn't perhaps the wisest choice. As far as anything else goes, you can assume (as I am sure you have) whatever you like about me.

The bottom line is:

I find it grossly unfair that some vegans expect to be treated like delicate and unique snowflakes while in the same breath treating meat eaters like devolved neanderthals and refuse to offer any sort of accommodation to them whatsoever.

As to your later comment about being invited to a vegan's home, those remarks where again directed back at the OP:

Again, I have to agree. It's very lopsided.

You think it sounds 'ridiculous' that I am deeply bothered by the suffering that went into the food that others eat? Well, that is the way I feel. As for expecting to be treated with respect and courtesy, well we can dream can't we? And if you have been called dreadful names by vegans than I am sorry for that. It isn't a very good example for anyone and you deserve courtesy and respect just as much as any other person.

But here you are asking me for some sort of accommodation, which in effect means you are asking me to go against everything I believe in to the core of my being. That is very unreasonable don't you think? Sort of like you expecting to be treat like a delicate little snowflake and accommodated. As I said before, the vegans that I know, including myself, don't expect special dishes or dinners. Personally, I think you say things like that because you think it makes us look bad. And by the way, the OP didn't state that the vegan asked for/expected to receive a specific alternative, just that the host did.

So what kind of delicate little flower do you see yourself as?