How is being a vegetarian different from eating the meat of an animal?

[Lovely]

Originally Posted by mahakali

hmm do you grow a garden lovely? and how do u keep bugs off? i know there is some natural ways or less harmful ways like spraying tomato leaves with dish soap for the aphids, man those suckers will kill an entire crop in a matter of days here in GA!

My parents have, yes. But only in the summer and not a good one lol.
And I plan to start one this spring. My neighbor
also has one and shares his vegetables with us :)
I'm not to sure how to get bugs out. Usually I never had issues with them and if
they got to our vegetables they only got to a few, not the whole patch.
I'm so new at this though so I don't know much about keeping insect away.

Your right lovey, but once again it goes both ways. Thers jsut as much destruction to plants as to animals. A lant is a life too, and the whole " it deosnt feel pain so its ok to eat it" is a very ignorant way to think of life ( i know you didnt say that at all, im saying in general). You are right, we have to do as less damage as possible, to both plants and animals. Not JUST animals, and of course ourselves as well.

Buying organic is awsome, so is buying local. It reduces gas emissions and other resorces. And growing your own food is even better! But you can do that with yoru meat as well.

Mahakali - thats easy, dont let the conditions that the bugs thrive in happen! DOnt mass plant things, thats going to encourage disease spread and virusus. Also, make your garden a mini forest, so things will enourace natural predators to come and balance the ecological webs that the garden crates, instead of doing all the work youself. let nature work with you

[Lovely]

Originally Posted by Time

Your right lovey, but once again it goes both ways. Thers jsut as much destruction to plants as to animals. A lant is a life too, and the whole " it deosnt feel pain so its ok to eat it" is a very ignorant way to think of life ( i know you didnt say that at all, im saying in general). You are right, we have to do as less damage as possible, to both plants and animals. Not JUST animals, and of course ourselves as well.

Buying organic is awsome, so is buying local. It reduces gas emissions and other resorces. And growing your own food is even better! But you can do that with yoru meat as well.

Mahakali - thats easy, dont let the conditions that the bugs thrive in happen! DOnt mass plant things, thats going to encourage disease spread and virusus. Also, make your garden a mini forest, so things will enourace natural predators to come and balance the ecological webs that the garden crates, instead of doing all the work youself. let nature work with you

It's not that it's ok to eat because it can't feel pain.
But plants/fruits are the only thing we vegans can eat.
We, if we're lucky, have a choice between eating an animal AND a plant
or only eat a plant.

But thats jsut it its a choice, its not that its the only thing you can eat or you die, its by choice. If tis by choice, you cant say anything about anyone elses preference for food.

I eat everything, becasue thats what im supposed to eat. I respect my food as much as I can, and compost, and garden, growing more and more of my own food each year with no fertilizer or pecticides. This will probably save a part of a cow, and a few chickens and a portion of a pig in the year, but every little bit helps. I cant go vegan becasue i dont see any point in it. But thats just me. Im not going to go this way is better then the other, because in the hard cold reality of it, there is NO real difference at all.

Lovley, you are a smart person, and seem to research to soem degree. Id like to make a sort of challenge (more liek request but.. LOL). I want you to learn as much about plants as you can in a month. If your parents have house plants. Take over charge of their care. If they dont have some, buy some. Grow things from seeds ( if you want PM me, ill give you a long list of things you can grow from the grocery store). Read " the seceret life of plants" ( its liek 200 pages quick read), and possibly "gaias garden". Also, there are free documentary sites online. Watch the planet earth documentaries on the forests and plants. Go for a walk with soem friends in some wooded area, and see how the plants are, and their relationship with everything around them. Im not saying ( or trying), to change your veiw. But i think you will have a whole new respect for plants. And i mean this whole heartedly as well.

plants may have a spirit but they dont have a nervous system. i really think they are just so different that there is no way to tell what they go through. what if plants are enlightened in a way where they live in perfect balance? we dont know for sure but one thing i do know is that animals are like us and i think they may be struggling in the evolution of spirit, like what if they are on the line of reincarnating as a human or dwelling in a hell realm. i dont see plants being lost and absorbed in there ego, but i do see how humans and animals can. im want to help animals evolve spiritually, not add to there suffering. i think that if an entity suffers real bad at the moment of death they can slip into a hell realm. watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RutlcweQAs now i dont see this type of personality in plants, plants may be on a whole different level, i really get the feeling they are. like they have no opinions, i mean physically they have no brains so they prob dont reason and suffer like humans confused in the material reality. i would think that plants are more connected to the spirit world, so they dont need our help like the animals do. does this make any sense? like killing plants are ok bc they are sort of all connected as spirit like a realized person would be. so they dont loose anything where an animal might loose a chance to incarnate as something higher.

[Lovely]

Originally Posted by Time

But thats jsut it its a choice, its not that its the only thing you can eat or you die, its by choice. If tis by choice, you cant say anything about anyone elses preference for food.

I eat everything, becasue thats what im supposed to eat. I respect my food as much as I can, and compost, and garden, growing more and more of my own food each year with no fertilizer or pecticides. This will probably save a part of a cow, and a few chickens and a portion of a pig in the year, but every little bit helps. I cant go vegan becasue i dont see any point in it. But thats just me. Im not going to go this way is better then the other, because in the hard cold reality of it, there is NO real difference at all.

Lovley, you are a smart person, and seem to research to soem degree. Id like to make a sort of challenge (more liek request but.. LOL). I want you to learn as much about plants as you can in a month. If your parents have house plants. Take over charge of their care. If they dont have some, buy some. Grow things from seeds ( if you want PM me, ill give you a long list of things you can grow from the grocery store). Read " the seceret life of plants" ( its liek 200 pages quick read), and possibly "gaias garden". Also, there are free documentary sites online. Watch the planet earth documentaries on the forests and plants. Go for a walk with soem friends in some wooded area, and see how the plants are, and their relationship with everything around them. Im not saying ( or trying), to change your veiw. But i think you will have a whole new respect for plants. And i mean this whole heartedly as well.

I'll try that :)

But plants and animals are totally different.
Animals can mourn the lose of a child or friend.
They feel fear, they form friendships, they feel pain.
They are sentient beings who are currently being treated like
an object. Pigs have the intelligence of a 3 year old child.
Cows have been found to solve puzzles and their heart beats
faster when they do. That means they actually feel happy and get
excited when they figured something out.
Turkeys have even been reported to have taste in music. And chickens
form flocks and friendships.

While it's true we are animals and other animals eat animals;
We are different than other animals.
We have the ability to think and make choices. We can think
about the impact we have on the animal and his/her friends. What
affect it has on our body, and on our planet.

If you were in another culture you would be eating dogs and cats.
And I'm sure you have or know someone who has a dog/cat so
you know how smart and caring they can be.

Why is it okay to eat cows, but not dogs? They both suffer.
It's specist.

Humans are only one specie out of 5-30 million .
We don't own the planet even though we think we do.

We can look at animals and see how vulnerable it is.
We can see it is sad and scared. When a new born baby cow is
torn away from its mom to be veal it is scared and sad. It wants its
mother but it will never see her again.

It may be sad we have to eat plants/fruits, but why does that justify
eating animals as well?

Not to mention by breeding more and more and more animals they are going
to eat more and more and more plants. Therefore mass consumption of meat
harms plants too.

16 pounds of grain will be gone to make one pound of beef.

In a world where people are literally dying for water
2,500 gallons is being use to make only one pound of beef.

Switching to even only a vegetarian diet is better for the environment
that driving a hybrid car.

I'm just trying to inform you, not make you feel guilty
since I've contributed to the meat & dairy industry as well in the past.

And one more thing we have no choice but to eat plants/fruits,
but we DO have a choice to eat meat or not.

Its not an easy concept to grasp. But like you said, why dont we eat dogs, its speciest? Thats right, and the same goes with saying its different form eating plants and not animals. ITs cherry picking, due to your personal preference. You can live on a meat only diet, just as much as a vegan diet and it takes as much work. ITs no different either way. Farming vplants is one of the most destructive thigns man has invented. Any enviromentalist will tell you that. Over half the water used is strickly for agriculture. Not to mention all the fertilizers that create dead zones in water ( look up the lake eerie dead zone). TIs when algea blooms to the high amount of nitrates, and sucks the oxygen out of the water, eliminating anlife in that area. Not to mention the forests that were cut down to make the land farmable, and more then likley burnt, putting carbon dioxide int he air. The gasoline used to runt he farm equipment. And farming, due tot he fertilizers, and stripping of nutrients int he land ( due to non relplacement), there is over a 45% loss of topsoil in the US. That means almsot nothing can grow there untill succession by plants makes soil over a decade. Over 3/4 of the original primary forest in northamerica was burned and destroyed for farming ( plants and animals to be fair). Not to mentiuon the shipping of the fruits from california and etc. We cant grow everythign everywhere. Citrus, which is the primary source of vitamine c we get, can only survive in 5% of the country ( US), and most of the country cant grow food year round either. Food has to be sent by truck or boat. Half of our fruit comes from out of the country ( canada, and even the US).

Mala - I think its ego to tihnk that humans are above anything at all. All we are are apes with intellect and an aposable thumb. Were as much nature as the crow, tree or river. Plants dont need a nervous system. They are the first life to evolve ont his planet, and without it, life as we know it wouldnt exsist. Plants are 400 million eyars old, and predate any animal. They are well beyond humans in evolutionalry terms. We put human dfeelings into everything, and saying that casue plants dotn have a nervous system is folly. Of course they dont, they arent animals. But that doesnt mean that it isnt life. Clams are thoguht not to have pain receptors, yet its an animal. Same with lobster, they apperantly dont feel it being cooked alive, yet vegans cringe when you hear of this ( and tbh I do to , i dont liek the thought of things being cooked alive)

Dispite what it may sound like, im not discouraging vegans. Only the attitude that it si better then anything esle, that its healthier, that its mroe friendly to the enviroment, and less harmful to animals..... life feeds on life, everything eats meat eventualy becase the meat is brocken down and the plants ingest it.

Plants are life too, we are made up of the same things as them, and are reincarated either into, or by plants. We get broken down into soil, which is ingested by plants, which is eaten by animals, which is made into you, and the cycle begins again. Life is created from life, and life needs life to survive. And that includes plants. We cant say they dont feel pain becasue weve never actualy checked. And the question is asked again.... would you eat a human or a cow if you knew he wouldnt feel pain?

[Lovely]

Originally Posted by Time

Its not an easy concept to grasp. But like you said, why dont we eat dogs, its speciest? Thats right, and the same goes with saying its different form eating plants and not animals. ITs cherry picking, due to your personal preference. You can live on a meat only diet, just as much as a vegan diet and it takes as much work. ITs no different either way. Farming vplants is one of the most destructive thigns man has invented. Any enviromentalist will tell you that. Over half the water used is strickly for agriculture. Not to mention all the fertilizers that create dead zones in water ( look up the lake eerie dead zone). TIs when algea blooms to the high amount of nitrates, and sucks the oxygen out of the water, eliminating anlife in that area. Not to mention the forests that were cut down to make the land farmable, and more then likley burnt, putting carbon dioxide int he air. The gasoline used to runt he farm equipment. And farming, due tot he fertilizers, and stripping of nutrients int he land ( due to non relplacement), there is over a 45% loss of topsoil in the US. That means almsot nothing can grow there untill succession by plants makes soil over a decade. Over 3/4 of the original primary forest in northamerica was burned and destroyed for farming ( plants and animals to be fair). Not to mentiuon the shipping of the fruits from california and etc. We cant grow everythign everywhere. Citrus, which is the primary source of vitamine c we get, can only survive in 5% of the country ( US), and most of the country cant grow food year round either. Food has to be sent by truck or boat. Half of our fruit comes from out of the country ( canada, and even the US).

Mala - I think its ego to tihnk that humans are above anything at all. All we are are apes with intellect and an aposable thumb. Were as much nature as the crow, tree or river. Plants dont need a nervous system. They are the first life to evolve ont his planet, and without it, life as we know it wouldnt exsist. Plants are 400 million eyars old, and predate any animal. They are well beyond humans in evolutionalry terms. We put human dfeelings into everything, and saying that casue plants dotn have a nervous system is folly. Of course they dont, they arent animals. But that doesnt mean that it isnt life. Clams are thoguht not to have pain receptors, yet its an animal. Same with lobster, they apperantly dont feel it being cooked alive, yet vegans cringe when you hear of this ( and tbh I do to , i dont liek the thought of things being cooked alive)

Dispite what it may sound like, im not discouraging vegans. Only the attitude that it si better then anything esle, that its healthier, that its mroe friendly to the enviroment, and less harmful to animals..... life feeds on life, everything eats meat eventualy becase the meat is brocken down and the plants ingest it.

Plants are life too, we are made up of the same things as them, and are reincarated either into, or by plants. We get broken down into soil, which is ingested by plants, which is eaten by animals, which is made into you, and the cycle begins again. Life is created from life, and life needs life to survive. And that includes plants. We cant say they dont feel pain becasue weve never actualy checked. And the question is asked again.... would you eat a human or a cow if you knew he wouldnt feel pain?

I already said it's not because it can't feel pain.
It's because we need it to live. And meat eaters contribute
to the plant farming industry too. They eat vegetables and fruit too.
And the meat industry is way worse than the plant farming industry.
Cows eating so much plants, grass, and wheat. And meat makes
more more and more cows. The meat industry destroys so much
land and is horrible for the environment. Meat eaters contribute to the plant farming AND the meat industry.

[NightSpirit]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Time

Thats the funny thing about vegans. THey usualy feel better, but theres no actual scientific proof to say so. Its probably due to the fact taht they are making them selves feel happy, and or the placebo effect - You think it will do something and it did.

I have a theory on this. Could it be because the stomach has to work harder to break down dense meat? That's why they say not to eat heavy meals close to bed-time. And that's why we suffer more colon cancers i believe.

and heart attacks from cholesterol

.

There is absolutely no proven research that high cholesterol causes heart attacks. Trust me I've had this checked out thoroughly before i stopped taking statins. My son-in-law is a natural diet therapist and has done large amounts of research into this for his practice. It's been researched by the best and not one has a proven argument to link heart attack with ch. Its all to do with LDL/HDL's. But anyway, its starting to move away from the topic.


Protein, whichever way you get it, is a must for the body for weight, bones, muscles, skin and blood.

As long as vegans are aware of this then there's no problem.

Nononono Lovley, i didnt mean it as YOU, but weve agreed before that one of the main reasons to go vege is just what we are stating ( casue animals can feel pain, plants "cant"). I didnt mean fo ryou to take it as YOU.

And everything needs to live to some degree. Who gives us ( people) the right to judge who lives and who dies? What gives us the right to judge what is "right or wrong" to eat? No other aniimal as far as we know thinks the same way about food as we do. ITs becasue were spoiled in the fact we can eat what ever we want. No other animal gets that choice. Its eat or be eaten. The rule of life, is life is there to sustain other life. A wolf doesnt think of " oh it thinks like me, so ill go chew on some bark instead" ( and you cant use the argument that dogs are carnivores. They arent dogs are omnivorious like us, generaly eating anything on hand) The only reason we have thee problems with farming meat is becasue humans have no concept of too much. We throw away 40% of our food (vege and meat) every year. How is that respectful?

Even at that, chimps are similar to our cognitive abilities ( not to our extent but they are close). We know chimps feel, we know they communicate etc... yet, the second anyother monkey comes close to their territory, they attack it without remorse, and eat it. Killer whales drown their food before they eat it ( whales and dolphins have almsot the same kinds of emotions as us) yet they dont care about dragging down a baby seal for food.

I definetly agree that plant and animals farmers generaly work together. How else are they going to feed the animals? But that doesnt mean that animal farming is any better then vege farming. Its disgusting how much damage any farming does, and no matter amount of talking around it is goingto make it any different, they are BOTH equily harmful, and too many vegans are to high on their horses to realise this ( not saying you, you have a better grasp on the concept then most veges ive talked to, at least your willing to listin LOL) And its sad, because vegans can do some great work, if their unbiased, and MANY arent because that whole "holier then thou" attitude thats is usualy attributed to veganism ( and I know im not the only one here who knows this as well). And thats too bad because their hearts are in the right place, and their intentions are there, but that doesnt mean their eating habits are any better then mine....

Lovley, if i remember your in the states. If you can, ask your dr about this, and as well, try and request a nuttritionist, and ask her so me questions. Its your jobs to ask questions, and its their job to answer them. You would be suprised at how conflicting general nutritionalists info and drs info conflicts heavily with the vegan operated info ( and as well to be fair, the meat info as well). If your independatly looking for information, especialy with these sort of matters, make sure they come from a reputable university, or medical program, not one or 2 vegan drs information. Thats like having a catholic priest interperate a non catholic religion. IT doesnt work, and you KNOW that the information wont be unbiased.


NS - LDL/.HTL are forms of cholesterol if i remember right. And its not only the cholesterol that does it, its the saturated that that usualy follows the high cholesterol. Cholesterol is well known to clog your arteries. I cant argue against a trained physisian, but my reasearch states slightly different.

And i have heard of this too. But the opposite, our stomachs cant handle a long term vege only diet. All herbivores need to ingest rocks, or gizzard stones), to hel break down plant matter. That is why cows have 4 stomachs, and why elephant dung ususaly has large pebbles in it. ITs an attribute usualy attributed to birds, but as far as I know almost all strict herbavorious animals, use gizzard stones to help break down plant matter.

I agree abot the protien. But no one has mentioneed the saturated fat question. How can you get saturated fat intake ( which humans MUST have), without eating meat?