The Truth Trap.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Philosophically speaking, to say it 'isn't true' is really just the same as saying it 'is true'...both are a trap.

That is not appropriately expressed. If saying 'isn't true' is not accompanied by a sentiment of truth then saying so isn't a manifestation of 'the truth trap'.
Both, saying 'is true' and saying 'isn't true' may be accompanied by a sentiment of truth although both are merely imputations and thus are empty of truth. Therefore to say 'isn't true' is always appropriate as a mere linguisitic expression, but to mentally impute truth on 'isn't true' is as inapprorpriate as mentally imputing truth on 'is true'.

Just accept that language is merely language and that language is not truth and that all quarrels about truths are caused merely by the fact that language has the word 'truth' and the reason why language has the word 'truth' is human innate truth habits.

[Shivani Devi]

I shall accept that language is not the truth.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

I shall accept that language is not the truth.

Ok. But then all phenomena dependent on language cannot represent truth either as e.g. thinking.

[Shivani Devi]

I shall accept that thinking is not the truth.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

I shall accept that thinking is not the truth.

ok. But since truth only exists dependent on thinking it there does not exist any truth at all.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Ground

ok. But since truth only exists dependent on thinking it there does not exist any truth at all.

It's the same as saying that Brahman doesn't exist because Brahman is just a word or a concept. It's ALL experiential, even such a thing as the 'truth' without language or thought of it is all experiential.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

It's the same as saying that Brahman doesn't exist because Brahman is just a word or a concept. It's ALL experiential, even such a thing as the 'truth' without language or thought of it is all experiential.

Well even saying 'It's ALL experiential' is just an imputation, just an expression, just a concept.
There is nothing behind or between words or characters. That is called emptiness. But that again, that emptiness, is mere imputation, just an expression, just a concept empty of truth.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Ground

ok. But since truth only exists dependent on thinking it there does not exist any truth at all.

ok so you are saying that a bird can't be true and therefore can't exist if I don't think about it? The only thing that makes it 'true' thus exist is me thinking about it? Who am I, that you grant me such power as to wish you out of existance simply by refusing to think your name?

[Ground]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

ok so you are saying that a bird can't be true and therefore can't exist if I don't think about it?

I say that a bird exists only dependent on imputation.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

The only thing that makes it 'true' thus exist is me thinking about it?

The sentiment of truth arises in you depending on imputation in the affirmative and depending on not having been taught about the view of prasangika madhyamaka.

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

Who am I, that you grant me such power as to wish you out of existance simply by refusing to think your name?

"you" are an instance of conscious being. That's all.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Ground

Well even saying 'It's ALL experiential' is just an imputation, just an expression, just a concept.
There is nothing behind or between words or characters. That is called emptiness. But that again, that emptiness, is mere imputation, just an expression, just a concept empty of truth.

For one who has experienced this 'emptiness' (which is fullness within itself), your words make no sense to me in any cognitive way whatsoever....not that they are meant to make any sense mind you...and I can appreciate this too...but it's like me typing qwertyuiop[] in reply and expecting somebody to understand what I mean by that....it just doesn't happen that way.