Is God particularly fierce?

[sky]

Originally Posted by ketzer

I like the sentiment, but get hung up on the word surrender. To me it carries a connotation of defeat.

sur·ren·der
/səˈrendər/
Learn to pronounce
verb
1.
cease resistance to an enemy or opponent and submit to their authority.

If it is a true act of love, then there is no resistance there, no fight to give up. The will desires something for someone else regardless of the benefit to itself.
With love there is the alignment of the will and the act flows naturally and freely.

I agree that there's no resistance in a true act of love. Love is a happening, surrender is a doing...

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Instead of the word "surrender", the Sufis prefer the expression "resurrection into God (consciousness)". The principle is the same but perhaps the verbiage may work better for some.

Oh! That is a much better way to put it. To me, the verbage works much better. I don't see the principle as the same, but I suppose behind the word symbols we use, we all assign a little bit different meaning.

I can see how a surrender might come before it, surrendering one's life and will, a surrendering of the flesh to whatever crucifixion awaits. But not trading in the love for hate, and therefore, no accompanying death of the holy spirit. One would imagine that it would take some rather fierce love to do that.

Originally Posted by neil

Gaining spiritual growth can depend on what state of Soul'self one is in...
ie:- a spiritual being who is in a very very dark form of mind, will have no love, because the enstillment of the love component which is instilled in us by the father during the creation of the blank whole Soul has become altered/depleted of love..they do not have hate, but just become "indifferent", no desire for love, no repentance, no happiness etc. & they will reach absolute rock bottom...absolute crazy soul wrenching gnashing of the teeth rock bottom/100% empty...before they cry out for change....

When one finds themselves lost in the woods they will often find that though they set out toward the road they know passes to the north of them, they seem to end up going in circles, and keep finding themselves back where they started. If one has a compass along, the thing to do is to establish your direction and then pick a far off landmark, a mountain top, or particularly tall tree, and then put the compass away and keep that landmark in sight until you get there. If you can't see the road to safety yet, repeat doing this until you do.
This works well provided one is in farm country, but in the big woods, that road could be far off and one might not get there before it gets dark and the temperature starts dropping and panic starts to set in.
During the daytime, when one is determined and confident of their direction, they may pass through a valley without ever noticing the little cabin in the woods up the hill from them. Though it could be a scant 50 yards in, they are focused on getting to that distant landmark and fail to see it there.
However, as the sun sets and things start getting dark, the landmark fades from sight, and the fear starts to grow. Now however, even a small candle burning on the table in that cabin becomes noticeable. Normally I would not think to go intrude on someone's solitude in the forest, but if I find myself lost, and it is getting cold and dark, and I am fearful that I may not make it out, I am much more apt to knock on the door.
Life can at times seem rather fierce, but perhaps that ferocity is what it takes to get our attention. Adrenaline stimulates the body, puts our senses into high gear. Darkness does not always make things harder to see.

The definition of 'surrender' that was presented earlier in this thread contained the words...."submit to authority". That seems to be and is an infringement on freedom. But, often, freedom surrendered can be more than offset by freedom gained. Examples:
the child submits to the parent
the student submits to the teacher
the employee submits to the boss(rather than be unemployed)
the immigrant submits to the laws of his new country

Scripturally we are reminded of the healing of the centurion's servant.....Matthew 8:5-13. Jesus declared that He had seen no one with greater faith and answered the centurion's plea to heal his servant. Jesus was impressed by the centurion's relating of how he adhered to the chain of authority. The centurion gave orders and those under him obeyed. Those men gave orders to their charges and they were also obeyed. The servant obeyed the orders of the centurion.

These are all examples of being released from some type of bondage. What if we submit(surrender) to the ultimate authority(God)? What gift will we be given....what bondage will we be released from?

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by Molearner

The definition of 'surrender' that was presented earlier in this thread contained the words...."submit to authority". That seems to be and is an infringement on freedom. But, often, freedom surrendered can be more than offset by freedom gained. Examples:
the child submits to the parent
the student submits to the teacher
the employee submits to the boss(rather than be unemployed)
the immigrant submits to the laws of his new country

Scripturally we are reminded of the healing of the centurion's servant.....Matthew 8:5-13. Jesus declared that He had seen no one with greater faith and answered the centurion's plea to heal his servant. Jesus was impressed by the centurion's relating of how he adhered to the chain of authority. The centurion gave orders and those under him obeyed. Those men gave orders to their charges and they were also obeyed. The servant obeyed the orders of the centurion.

These are all examples of being released from some type of bondage. What if we submit(surrender) to the ultimate authority(God)? What gift will we be given....what bondage will we be released from?

the terms of that surrender might cause the state of submission to be ended and replaced as Jesus did say he wanted his followers to be one with him, its not so possible to be one and be in a state of submission at the same time. it seems like being one describes the true state of submission

Bible repentance:

The repentance (metanoia) called for throughout the Bible is a summons to a personal, absolute and ultimate unconditional surrender to God as Sovereign. Though it includes sorrow and regret, it is more than that. ... In repenting, one makes a complete change of direction (180° turn) toward God.

This is how I surrender.
I am and have been stubborn and willful to the point of self punishing.
Which gratefully has always turned into surrender.
Surrender has always lead to freedom in my case.
So I love surrender and wish I would do more of it.

Originally Posted by davidmartin

the terms of that surrender might cause the state of submission to be ended and replaced as Jesus did say he wanted his followers to be one with him, its not so possible to be one and be in a state of submission at the same time. it seems like being one describes the true state of submission

I agree. A child will surrender to a parent and therefore listen when told to do something. But what a parent should want is not only for a child to do as they are told, but to eventually learn (and even to desire) to do the right thing because they know it is right and want to do it. It is a question of growth and maturation.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Still_Waters,

I love that !!! Makes me wish I was a preacher so I could share with others...:) I toyed with answering that post by somehow talking about there being peace in surrender......something along those lines. The original posting was such a literal definition apparently that it awakened that seed in you. I also liked that you said in one sentence what otherwise might have been hidden in 5 paragraphs. Makes me believe that there is strength in numbers and gives me some faith in these forums. Thank you...:)

There is indeed an indescribable "peace in surrender", as you duly noted but which many seem not to have discovered. As I mentioned in a previous post, the Sufis offer the alternative term "resurrection into God" for those who don't feel comfortable with the literal meaning of "surrender".

One of my favorite Psalms is Psalm 62, which is very much related to our discussion. "Only in God (resurrection into God) is my soul at rest, in Him comes my salvation".

https://www.worshiptogether.com/song...ichael-talbot/

I love your posts !

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by davidmartin

the terms of that surrender might cause the state of submission to be ended and replaced as Jesus did say he wanted his followers to be one with him, its not so possible to be one and be in a state of submission at the same time. it seems like being one describes the true state of submission

Jesus did indeed say that "I and the Father are one and the same" and, in my opinion, that is a perfect example of "surrender" or, as the Sufis say, "resurrection into God". When one purifies the heart ("Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God"), one soars naturally ("Thou restoreth my soul" from Psalm 23) like an eagle into the sky of God consciousness and, from that perspective, one is perfectly aligned with the will of the Father ("Thy Will Be Done"; "Be thou perfect even as thy Heavenly Father is Perfect").

Simultaneously, of course, one becomes one with the pure Lord Jesus as well as all are aligned with the will of the Father. This works (at least for me).

[davidmartin]

Originally Posted by sky123

' but good could still exist without evil '

You are using the words Good and Evil Opposites which need each other to be....

Yin/Yang..... Opposites which cannot exist without each other, as each contain the seed of the other.

Sky I read something today that made sense
it said evil did not actually exist but its just a misdirected kind of action

it also said good and evil are not really opposites because good exists (and eternally as God), but evil doesn't exist as any real thing, but does exist when it's created. so basically it exists but nothing comparible or like the way good exists, because good is what God is
that doesn't exclude the existence of dark forces, etc, any more than dark people that do exist, but still evil doesn't have any life of it's own

the reason for this is to affirm the goodness and unity of God, and i guess to put the focus back on goodness where it belongs