When People Pray Or Say "Thy Will Be Done"

[SoulsInMotion]

I think there is a marked difference between accepting something and giving up. If you accepted, as you said, getting cancer, you are doing just that. It's not a death sentence. "Thy will be done" to me kind of means that it is useless to struggle against the forces of the universe. If we go with them, we may even thrive much better because we don't spend all our energy in misery over our circumstances when we wished for something different. And we may still find that we get our original wish in the end sometimes, just in a different way than we envisioned. That is the difference between God's will and our will. God always knows the best way, since God has knowledge over all of creation and its complex interaction.

I think there is a paradox with God's will. While it's true that that which will be will be, it doesn't necessarily mean that it's what God wants, but God allows it.

As an analogy, you leave your kid at home. You say something like ''be good''. The kid (having free will) can do whatever he wants. He could break the TV, draw on the walls, etc. As the parent you wouldn't say ''it was my will he did those things'', but it was your will to give him the freedom to do those things. Your will would be to leave him in the house and that he does the right thing. True, you can say ''what will be will be'' and yes, what will be will be, but it doesn't mean it's what you want.

I think God has a will for us, and he wants us to conform with that will, but I also think he allows things to happen that he would not want to happen, but to stop from happening would mean the cessation of our free will.

I hope that makes some sense.

[kingfisher]

As I see it, God ( or Reality-as-is ) "wills" that we be free.

God is freedom itself.

[Miss Hepburn]

Good answers.
I will take a different stance, tho...it says to me the person has no idea
what God's Will is...which is very common.
It shows doubt and lack of education or personal direct contact.
Sure, it sounds all humble...and it is...it's sweet.
Don't get me wrong.

But, know what His Will is and then you can leave that out!

(Incidentally, His Will encompasses good health, abundance, love, happiness and
success in every avenue of a person's life!)
That is God's Will...so just decree it or ask for it directly and with confidence.

"God, I need this new job, So Be it. And so it is. Amen Thank You."
No need to say if it be Thy Will...of course, it's His Will!
He's our Father and wants everything for us that is good and for our happiness.
Have no doubt of that.

[kingfisher]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Good answers.
I will take a different stance, tho...it says to me the person has no idea
what God's Will is...which is very common.
It shows doubt and lack of education or personal direct contact.
Sure, it sounds all humble...and it is...it's sweet.
Don't get me wrong.

But, know what His Will is and then you can leave that out!

(Incidentally, His Will encompasses good health, abundance, love, happiness and
success in every avenue of a person's life!)
That is God's Will...so just decree it or ask for it directly and with confidence.

"God, I need this new job, So Be it. And so it is. Amen Thank You."
No need to say if it be Thy Will...of course, it's His Will!
He's our Father and wants everything for us that is good and for our happiness.
Have no doubt of that.

With "God" as freedom itself we need not know "His" will at all. Except that we be free. Then we act in each on-going moment, seeking nothing and knowing no "will" or anticipation of what it might be.

I see this as neither "sweet" nor "humble".

The Christian mystic Meister Eckhart spoke well of "true obedience" in his "Talks of Instruction". There he spoke of a "pure going out of what is our own" in which there is no "I want this or I want that", even if this be eternal life or a particular virtue.

Many non-theists recognise Eckhart as a "dharma brother". His insights cross the normal boundaries between religions, even between theism and non-theism.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by kingfisher

With "God" as freedom itself we need not know "His" will at all.
Except that we be free.
Then we act in each on-going moment, seeking nothing and knowing no "will" or anticipation of what it might be.
I see this as neither "sweet" nor "humble".
The Christian mystic Meister Eckhart spoke well of "true obedience" in his "Talks of Instruction".
There he spoke of a "pure going out of what is our own" in which there is no
"I want this or I want that", even if this be eternal life or a particular virtue.

Hi kingfisher, I love Meister Eckhart. I have not read everything of his.
I have never thought of God as freedom itself...but I think you are correct.
He is complete freedom.
That is not all He is.
Freedom of itself could equal chaos. No?

If someone can act in each on-going moment, seeking nothing...
well, I think they would be a Zen Master. Good.
Is their happiness in seeking nothing? Just 'being';accepting what is?
I would say, yes.
It certainly is a state of a peaceful mind!

If their freedom means they can rob a store...not so great.
A river is free...but has banks.
A bird is free, but knows where to fly.
The fish is free, but knows where to live.
The electron stays its path.

That is a whole other topic...should we seek at all, when anything we could need or want is
within us already....or given us naturally...
as the birds in the field.
"We are what we seek", is a common saying of different Eastern teachers.

It helps me to know that God's Will is for my good...meaning
happiness, health and success....
which includes within them, love, peace, contentment, freedom, joy, confidence, power, wisdom...and so on.
It is not for only my freedom...tho, that is certainly a big part, as I see it.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by Parma

When people pray or say, "Thy will be done" are they personally abdicating their will to God? Is this advisable since we are given free will? I understand when the Lord's Prayer is said "thy will be done" is referring to the broad picture, but I've heard lots of people say this regarding their personal circumstances. It makes me think they are saying, I concede I don't know what I'm doing, and don't want to take the time to learn, so you take over. It seems lazy to me. It sounds similar to the saying, Jesus take the wheel. Am I looking at this all wrong? Please enlighten me.

Hi Parma,

When people pray or say, "Thy will be done" are they personally abdicating their will to God?

Yes.

Is this advisable since we are given free will?

Yes, since as the previous indicates they are praying for their own (and implicitly others') limited ignorant self-will to be displaced, transformed, superseded by the All-knowing Truth of God's Will. This is actually the best use of one's so-called free-will, which is really bondage, attachment, and suffering, and really no will at all, but a self-perpetuating enslavement to ignorance.

As such, "Thy Will be done" is probably (imo) the most significant prayer offered to humanity by Jesus Christ.

It makes me think they are saying, I concede I don't know what I'm doing, and don't want to take the time to learn, so you take over. It seems lazy to me.

It is what they are saying, but your conclusion about intention and function are (imo) incorrect.

It's not lazy at all, nor an abrogation of responsibility and caring - just the opposite - it's courageous. And one still has to apply diligence, patience, sincerity, discipline, and effort to learn and act accordingly to this intention - it's not like laying down and dying. But it is dynamically surrendering one's God-given life and energy to the larger Life and fuller Truth.

iow, in this:

It sounds similar to the saying, Jesus take the wheel.

Yes...they are asking to become the wheel that Jesus is steering - becoming the instrument of the Divine Will.

Within spiritual practice (<--key word), that has to progressively become a reality in truth, in actual practice - not just a facile lip-service paid to the theory only, while pure ego and pride is actually still doing the steering. That's not fulfilling God's Will, that's a self-deception of ego. This is why courage and diligence is necessary. It's not a trivial matter, but the very substance of spiritual practice which takes time and continued dedication.

Bottom line: Something has to displace one's ignorance, or we remain mired in it.
Sincerely asking to know, accept, serve, and become the instrument of God's Will is one of the main ways to progress spiritually.



~ J

[kingfisher]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Hi kingfisher, I love Meister Eckhart. I have not read everything of his.
I have never thought of God as freedom itself...but I think you are correct.
He is complete freedom.
That is not all He is.
Freedom of itself could equal chaos. No?

If someone can act in each on-going moment, seeking nothing...
well, I think they would be a Zen Master. Good.
Is their happiness in seeking nothing? Just 'being';accepting what is?
I would say, yes.
It certainly is a state of a peaceful mind!

If their freedom means they can rob a store...not so great.
A river is free...but has banks.
A bird is free, but knows where to fly.
The fish is free, but knows where to live.
The electron stays its path.

That is a whole other topic...should we seek at all, when anything we could need or want is
within us already....or given us naturally...
as the birds in the field.
"We are what we seek", is a common saying of different Eastern teachers.

It helps me to know that God's Will is for my good...meaning
happiness, health and success....
which includes within them, love, peace, contentment, freedom, joy, confidence, power, wisdom...and so on.
It is not for only my freedom...tho, that is certainly a big part, as I see it.

Its said in Christianity that God is His own gift, therefore if we share/know/live the freedom of God there would be no question of robbing banks.

There have been zen masters who have chopped cats in half, but this perhaps is another subject, or another direction.....

Having said that, a "whole other topic"? See my "Twin Pillars" thread in the "Buddhism" section.

I still find a deep trust in the words of a Pure Land mykonin ( saint ) who said....

Whether I am heading for heaven
Or heading for Hell
All is in Amida's hands
Namu Amida Butsu!

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by ciel_perdu

I think the prayer 'Thy will be done' isn't about abdicating responsibility, but a reminder to ourselves that there is a higher will for our lives, that if we truly want to live, we need to conform ourselves with it.

It's so easy to go about doing our own thing, becoming full of our own opinions, plans, and desires, but even simply praying 'thy will be done' opens us up to giving God, Source, Spirit (whatever name you want to use) a chance to get through to us and nudge us along the right path - to flow with the spirit so to speak.

I think we do have free will, but I also believe that we only truly live in that free will, when we're merging it with God's will. For it's when we're being completely controlled by God that we are in complete freedom.

I agree completely that, when one surrenders one's little separatist ego and aligns with the "God Consciousness" that acts in the best interests of the Totality, the results are far better than when we rely solely on our limited personal perspective.

I love your response, and this is how I live. Things work better when one attunes to the "Thy Will Be Done" Principle and allows the "God Consciousness" to work through us in the best interests of all, including ourselves.

[bees]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

Hi Parma,

Yes.

Yes, since as the previous indicates they are praying for their own (and implicitly others') limited ignorant self-will to be displaced, transformed, superseded by the All-knowing Truth of God's Will. This is actually the best use of one's so-called free-will, which is really bondage, attachment, and suffering, and really no will at all, but a self-perpetuating enslavement to ignorance.

As such, "Thy Will be done" is probably (imo) the most significant prayer offered to humanity by Jesus Christ. It is what they are saying, but your conclusion about intention and function are (imo) incorrect.

It's not lazy at all, nor an abrogation of responsibility and caring - just the opposite - it's courageous. And one still has to apply diligence, patience, sincerity, discipline, and effort to learn and act accordingly to this intention - it's not like laying down and dying. But it is dynamically surrendering one's God-given life and energy to the larger Life and fuller Truth.

iow, in this: Yes...they are asking to become the wheel that Jesus is steering - becoming the instrument of the Divine Will.

Within spiritual practice (<--key word), that has to progressively become a reality in truth, in actual practice - not just a facile lip-service paid to the theory only, while pure ego and pride is actually still doing the steering. That's not fulfilling God's Will, that's a self-deception of ego. This is why courage and diligence is necessary. It's not a trivial matter, but the very substance of spiritual practice which takes time and continued dedication.

Bottom line: Something has to displace one's ignorance, or we remain mired in it.
Sincerely asking to know, accept, serve, and become the instrument of God's Will is one of the main ways to progress spiritually.



~ J

Thanks, Jyotir, but in this scenario, how are decisions made? You come to a fork in the road and keep walking, in surrendering one's will so to speak, how is a choice made and how does one distinguish between's one own will and that of God?