How do men experience soul connections

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by TheGlow

Im not sure about this. I had a horrible family example. Not one good relationship I saw yet despite that I chose to treat others how I wished to be treated. Love, respect, no games, no manipulation, honesty.

This stuff comes naturally it seems a bit sheepish to blame someone for not teaching it. Someone can teach you to behave badly but still it's a choice to follow.

I was beaten, manipulated, abused in ways I need not talk about. It didn't make me perpetuate the behavior it made me sure I would not do the same to others, and to have empathy for the suffering of others.

At some point we have to stop blaming and realize choices were made.

Glow...yes, you're right, we do. Choices are made in every moment, and we make them. I do, you do, and all of us do. No one else makes them for us.

No one holds a gun to our head and makes us turn from authentically loving, kind, and compassionate behaviour in each moment. No one holds a gun to our head and makes us turn toward it in each moment, either. As your post describes, you and many of us have consciously made those choices all throughout our lives. Often in extremely challenging, cruel, and abusive situations.

We cannot blame someone else for anything we do. It is still WE that do it.
There may be situational explanations, but these are meaningless with regard to excusing ourselves of responsibility for what actually came from our consciousness, our own mouths, and our own hands.

Let's say someone asks or requires something of us, perhaps even with great love and kindness...in the spirit of reciprocity and a mutual authentic love and kindness. We however don't feel like being loving or kind, and so we speak cruel words, we strike them down, and we think smug, hostile, and self-justifying thoughts or intentions along the lines of they "made us do it"-- because they were uppity enough (or honest enough) to value themselves equally to us, or to honour us with their voice, their thoughts, their concerns, or their needs in love, partnership, friendship, or familial bonds. Rather than dialogue and discuss a compromise, we chose to attack and to strike them down with cruel words or harsh deeds, all whilst blaming them for our choices.

If we are either unawakened OR if we are awakened but yet still consciously choose to repeatedly turn away from authentic love and kindness, then we seek to be "naturally" justified in our actions because others bear ultimate responsibility for our behaviour. Others spoke, we reacted, and so "naturally" they are the cause -- because we either cannot or choose not to accept that we are fully responsible for what we intend, think, say, and do.

Explanations of our current level of consciousness may be only vaguely helpful to others, if at all...but in the end, they are still never excuses. Really they are meaningful only to each of us. And ultimately they stand for nothing unless we each take those explanations and use them as our own personal guide for growth, for remorse, for contrition, for forgiveness, and perhaps even for reconciliation if we are blessed with that opportunity on either side.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Somnia]

I'm not a man (obviously, LOL!) but from personal observation, it all depends on the guys state of being...

I've known guys who are comfortable showing physical affection/talking about their feelings towards other females, and I've known guys who are more reserved for various reasons...

One thing to keep in mind is people, in general, are not mind readers...There are those who are sensitive and clue in easily to body language and voice tone, but for the most part if you are acting "subtle" with someone chances are they might miss the subtle clues and be completely oblivious to the kind of reaction you're wanting/expecting...

Communication is key in all relationships, so even if someone picks up on subtle clues it's best to be upfront and ask them what they feel, or if you want to express physical affection with them ask them if they would feel comfortable if you did "X" before you do it...

[jimrich]

In therapy, we were taught to work on and change OUR SELF and not to try changing others. The expectation was that, if we changed for the better, our partners MIGHT begin working on them self BUT we were WARNED that the partner may not see any benefits in our changes and either ignore us or refuse to go along with anything we have learned in therapy or attack us. This happened in my case. As I changed and slowed down my angry, fearful reactions to life, my (then) wife actually got worse in an attempt to stop the changes I was making and force me to go back to my old, intimidated way of being. She was uncomfortable with all that I was learning in therapy and began FIGHTING with me at every opportunity - SO I LEFT HER!

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Jimrich, I really like most of your straight-up, no-nonsense talk. The only thing I'd say is...it's great to try all you have suggested. BUT don't expect that any of it will necessarily move the needle and DO expect that you will most likely either 1) endure or 2) leave. And you are quite right that of those 2 options, leaving is the far healthier choice 99% of the time.

LOL, I have never said that you have to leave or endure. You said that in a previous post.
There are several options that are far better than the option to "endure" misery if the Victim (you) is not willing or able to leave the Offender. The Victim, who stays, can get into therapy, see a counselor, call the police, lock doors, set up defenses of various kinds, look around for HELP and do a lot of things that most helpless Victims, like my mother, never think of or have the GUTS to do to defend them self and their helpless children. So, like you, my spineless mother stayed in the relationship with her Offensive husband and ENDURED, along with her helpless kids, rather than take the kids and get out of there. Our Offender dad, finally walked away from all of us!

For you Jimrich personally, having someone model good behaviour toward you and treat you will love and kindness worked to change you for the good because you were open, ready, and at the right place on your path.

Well that's all wrong! What worked to "change me" was a lot of dedicated and intense emotional work in group therapy which finally helped me leave my Offender wife and get into this happy, loving and RESPECTFUL current marriage. I had a few "loving and kindness" role models along the way so I sort of knew that a relationship COULD BE good but it took working on my self in therapy to make that happen and not the influences of some kind and loving others.
Re: "because you were open, ready, and at the right place on your path." I would not make this so mystical or metaphysical. It just came down to common sense and DESPERATION - path or no path! I guess my mother was never desperate enough to leave her Offending husband, so he finally LEFT HER (and their 3 kids)!

For the vast majority of other relationships in this place (whether partners, friends, or fam), it doesn't work, and often never works satisfactorily no matter how long love and kindness is given and modeled. And no matter how much time passes.

IMO, the main reason it doesn't work satisfactorily is because the modeling of loving kindness may be happening too late for the Offender or the Role Models are flawed in some way them self. But the expectation of "changing" an Offender with modeling is very chancy - especially if the one trying to change the Offender is NOT OK them self and I suspect that most Offenders see and feel this "modeling" as a MANIPULATION and they resent it! IMO, the best form of "modeling" is to simply BE good, loving, patient and kind and let the Offender do what they will.

Because it's up to the other do the work involved in growth and change and for most, all the love in the world isn't remotely incentive enough. Not in this time and place.

Yes, it's up to each of us to do our own growth work and setting good examples of love and kindness CAN WORK for some Offenders but I suspect the main "incentive" for change, in anyone, is PAIN & FEAR. Once the Offender is hurting or frightened enough, they might go looking for help.

So...with that one HUGE caveat...your suggestions are excellent and should generally be given a go...but with the SOLID understanding that unless the recalcitrant, truculent, addicted and/or rude/cruel/angry individual is open, willing, and capable of change, it won't make a damn bit of difference, sadly.

IMO, everyone is "capable" of change but very few are WILLING to make any changes until forced by pain and fear to do it. It is sad but the burden to changing is ON YOU - not the Offender. It's your life! Waiting or hoping for the Offender to miraculously changed might leave you in misery for a very long, sad time so why live like that? I decided that my comfort and sanity was more important to me than working to change my ex-wife so, after a period of trying, I LEFT HER!

Success of the other changing nearly all depends on the other -- and nearly nothing at all depends on you -- and simply pouring the water of love and kindness on the rock would still take an eternity to reshape the rock.

So stop trying to or hoping to change him and work on your own, personal "issues". If it gets too unbearable, LEAVE. If you can't or won't leave the Offender, as my pathetic mother did, figure out how to set your boundaries, put up your defenses and live with your very sick and perhaps even violent Offender the best that you (and the kids, if any) can. It is possible to live with an Offender in comfort and safety WITHOUT simply ENDURING the Offender's abuses. This takes some education and effort to learn how to handle an Offender but it's better than being the helpless, unhappy, angry, tired and FRIGHTENED Victim of an Offender such as the one you seem to be living with. IMO, acquiring good self esteem and self respect is the Royal Road to living with and handling an Offender such as your mate, so google: self esteem and get started improving yours and then pretty soon, living with and HANDLING your Offender will be quite easy unless improved self worth ultimately allows you to LEAVE HIM.
good luck,
jim

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Somnia

I'm not a man (obviously, LOL!) but from personal observation, it all depends on the guys state of being...

Which comes down to how he was raised more than any other factor, IMO and experience.

I've known guys who are comfortable showing physical affection/talking about their feelings towards other females, and I've known guys who are more reserved for various reasons...

I'd say the reasons are usually tied to how they were raised and how their parents behaved or felt, etc. Most of us are replicas of our parents in many but rarely acknowledged ways.

One thing to keep in mind is people, in general, are not mind readers...There are those who are sensitive and clue in easily to body language and voice tone, but for the most part if you are acting "subtle" with someone chances are they might miss the subtle clues and be completely oblivious to the kind of reaction you're wanting/expecting...

This is a very significant point and one that is made in nearly every Relationship Skills book or teaching. If someone were to google: relationship tips or skills, they'd find quite a lot of techniques and tips such as the "mind reading" things and many more.

Communication is key in all relationships, so even if someone picks up on subtle clues it's best to be upfront and ask them what they feel, or if you want to express physical affection with them ask them if they would feel comfortable if you did "X" before you do it...

Many books have been written about "communication" and other valuable skills such as 100% Honesty, NO CRITICISM, Respect, Affection, Kindness, Loyalty and other important skills and behaviors so, it seems amazing that so many folks remain so sadly ignorant about Relationship stuff.
I had to get into therapy to begin exploring the incredible wealth of good Relationship information that is all around us so I don't have very much patience for those who can't make a relationship work.
The 2 tips that you mentioned are just the tip of the ice-berg but could get a couple started in the right direction so I applaud your post and hope you will write some more about this.
Respectfully,
jim

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jimrich

IMO, everyone is "capable" of change but very few are WILLING to make any changes until forced by pain and fear to do it. It is sad but the burden to changing is ON YOU - not the Offender. It's your life! Waiting or hoping for the Offender to miraculously changed might leave you in misery for a very long, sad time so why live like that? I decided that my comfort and sanity was more important to me than working to change my ex-wife so, after a period of trying, I LEFT HER!
jim

Jim, I agree with the above, with another HUGE caveat.

Just like your ex-wife, not everyone is willing to make adequate or substantive changes, period. Regardless of circumstance. Even though yes I agree all are potentially able to change. Motivation through fear or loss is only partially and occasionally successful. Most repeat their behaviour regardless of outcome, even when the outcome is negative. The only consistent and guaranteed way anyone changes is when they actively and consciously choose to do so.

That has ultimately nothing to do with you or with anyone else but them. It's a fallacy to say or to believe or expect that if you make changes, you can save your relationship single-handedly. It's only if both are actively willing and able to make the necessary changes & adaptations that things will work. If that happens, great, but you cannot expect it and you cannot count on it. Further, this outcome is often not the case, and then it is a matter of endure or leave, and IMO leaving is the better option - just as in your situation with the prior wife.

Also, you're not talking to me, as I'm single and I'm not trying to "change" anyone. But I would recommend you not use this language without being careful. Women who state what they need are also not trying to "change" anyone simply by voicing their thoughts and their needs -- so IMO we all need to be very careful about using the term in this context. It is often phrased as a more gender-specific tirade mostly against women which prevents many women from speaking out on what they legitimately need and deserve.

Speaking out for what you need and deserve is a good thing. That doesn't mean you're trying to change anyone, and in fact no one can change anyone, so the whole accusation is completely baseless. It sidetracks the dialogue with blame. This technique is used often to divert the topic when a woman tries to state her needs, or to shut her down entirely. In fact, she too has a right to stand for what she needs and wants and deserves.

But beyond that, I agree with you in that if you've stated your needs and they're not being met, you're often better off leaving. Particularly if you've tried some therapy and communication techniques and it hasn't helped. And frequently, it does not help, primarily because the other simply does not want to meet your needs and chooses not to meet your needs.

Generally speaking as long as one understands that they cannot ultimately change or influence others, NOR should they expect anything they do to produce change in others...then it's fine to try some approaches to work things out. With the clear understanding that nothing can or should be expected to change, unless the other also likewise chooses to meet you halfway and to make it happen.

Bottom line, ppl need to understand none of what they do will produce change in others unless the others sign on fully and willingly. It's fine to try various approaches to aid your relationship -- and I think it is an honourable and loving thing to give another opportunity to rise to their better selves -- but only with this caveat clearly in mind (that all change in relationship equally requires the other wanting to participate and make changes), and only for a realistic amount of time - beyond which you are simply enduring and are not honouring and loving yourself equally to the other.

Peace & blessings
7L

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Also, you're not talking to me, as I'm single and I'm not trying to "change" anyone.

Ooops, sorry, I thought I was addressing the OP, Robot, who is apparently struggling with her mate. Somehow, I got off track and began addressing you as though you are Robot, sorry about that.
I am confident that you comments and opinions will help others quite a bit.
Blessings,
jim

[Somnia]

Originally Posted by jimrich

The 2 tips that you mentioned are just the tip of the ice-berg but could get a couple started in the right direction so I applaud your post and hope you will write some more about this.

Well, it's not like I'm a guru on relationships as I've experienced a total of 4 my entire lifetime (LOL!) ...I appreciate the compliment though...

I know what I want in a relationship but it's been a..."learn as you go" process for me...

What I've discovered works best for me is to become friends first before getting involved romantically with one another...My first 3 relationships were based on having crushes on one another and started dating without really getting to know one another...I believe that is why those relationships failed because we focused on physical attraction from the start, then later realized we were not very compatible with one another on deeper levels...The relationship I'm currently in, we started out hanging out as friends and realized we resonated very well with one another before deciding we wanted to get involved in a romantic relationship together...Our getting together was also around the time when I was beginning to explore spirituality and getting away from organized religion...apparently whatever we're doing is working because we've been together for over 15 years...

So I guess my relationship advice is: Be best friends first and lovers later...at least this is what seems to work best for me, Haha...

[jimrich]

Originally Posted by Somnia

Well, it's not like I'm a guru on relationships as I've experienced a total of 4 my entire lifetime (LOL!) ...I appreciate the compliment though...

I know what I want in a relationship but it's been a..."learn as you go" process for me...

After 4 failed relationships, did you ever study any relationship books, tapes, videos or online info?

What I've discovered works best for me is to become friends first before getting involved romantically with one another

That was my first insight after entering therapy and learning about relationships and friendship. It hit me pretty hard that my 1st wife and I had NEVER been "friends" - lovers, yes - but NEVER real friends! In therapy, I had to learn what a real or best friend is which forced me to examine my rotten childhood and discover that I had no idea what a friend is nor how to be one, thanks to the crumby parenting I was given.

Now don't anyone leap to the assumption that I am BLAMING my parents!!! I am simply stating a fact based on my own memories.

So, when I met my now wife, we both agreed to be each others BEST and most HONEST FRIENDS from the beginning and never let anything come between us as it had in both of our previous marriages. Thanks to learning a few other Relationship Skills from books and even online, we have succeeded in staying happily together for 24 years now and we are still best friends to this day. Our relationship started off very hot and passionate but friendship has made it work through high and low times whereas the lack of friendship and honesty KILLED my 1st marriage.

...My first 3 relationships were based on having crushes on one another and started dating without really getting to know one another...I believe that is why those relationships failed because we focused on physical attraction from the start, then later realized we were not very compatible with one another on deeper levels...

I am personally convinced that good relationship skills could have made any of those relationships work if both of you had the knowledge and desire to use such skills. IMO, most partners fail due to a lack of knowledge which is usually about bad or faulty parenting where these skills should come from in the first place. My parents had very bad relationship skills so I never saw an example of: friendship, loyalty, affection, respect, patience, kindness, LOVE, tolerance, acceptance, HONESTY and many other important features of a good relationship. My parents were more like casual acquaintances than a couple.

...apparently whatever we're doing is working because we've been together for over 15 years...

I solute you both!

So I guess my relationship advice is: Be best friends first and lovers later...at least this is what seems to work best for me, Haha...

I like that and would only add that, if someone is not sure how to be a Best Friend (I never knew), please google it or find a relationship book and LEARN HOW!
For the sake of visitors to this post, here's what we learned to do:
100% honesty and truthfulness ALL THE TIME - not just when its convenient or gets you something. Once honesty is firmly established, trust, respect, confidence and LOVE will easily follow.

Total Respect, kindness and frequent affection WITHOUT wanting something in return.

Treat each other as good as you did from the very beginning and DO NOT allow those feelings and behaviors to slowly fade and then die as many partners do out of ignorance or carelessness.

Make a commitment to being the best and most loving partner possible so that boredom, laziness, dishonesty, cheating, disrespect, teasing and CARELESSNESS does not gradually creep into the relationship after the honeymoon is over.

There's a few more skills but these alone can make a relationship work, especially if paired with the couples wedding vows.

Our final relationship advice is: get some relationship books or go on line and LEARN HOW!

[Somnia]

Originally Posted by jimrich

After 4 failed relationships, did you ever study any relationship books, tapes, videos or online info?

I did not...I was very young and didn't think to seek out such resources at the time...

Originally Posted by jimrich

I am personally convinced that good relationship skills could have made any of those relationships work if both of you had the knowledge and desire to use such skills.

Maybe, but I think a lot of it had to do with I was very young and naive when it came with actually experiencing relationships...My first relationship lasted 2 weeks when I was in the 8th grade (we crushed on each other at church and only saw one another at church and talked on the phone)...he broke up with me because I was "too old" for him...really? I was only like...2 years older

My 2nd relationship occurred when I was in the 9th grade which lasted on a couple months because at the time I was living in Utah, and I was going to move back to Texas and I wasn't ready to handle/try a long distance relationship so I broke it off with him...It was probably for the best because he was VERY physical with me (nothing sexual but he was very much wanting the relationship to go that route) and I wasn't ready to go all the way with anyone at that time...

My 3rd relationship lasted about 2.5 years in High School, but I eventually broke it off with him because he was controlling, possessive, manipulative, ran off all my lady friends, emotionally abusive...heaps of not so nice things...

My 4th relationship we started out as friends then 2 months into our "friendship" we started dating romantically...

Originally Posted by jimrich

I solute you both!

[Flameseeker]

http://www.heartsintrueharmony.com/m...f.html?s=12799