Role Reversal in Relationships

[Element 5]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Element 5, hello there!

I think things usually resolve or do not in 6 month cycles, based on my experience. If you've given it 6 months of conversation and feedback and support, then if it were me, maybe give another 6 months to wait and see if things change and if you're ok with it. I think it often becomes pretty apparent within the first few months of that 2nd 6 months period which direction things are trending.

If they are not trending toward more growth and more giving on his part, then you will need to accept he will not or cannot give you what you need right now and in the foreseeable future. Whether you stay with him or not. Maybe in future he will take enough steps forward to carry his share of the load and maybe never in this lifetime. All that is speculative. All you do know is what he is doing and saying right now. BUT....If you stay when things show no improvement, then you are in effect settling for whatever you currently have as the maximum output from him...and you are owning your choice to carry the bulk of the relationship load.

What that means is that if you continue to sign onto things as they are, do not EVER expect them to change for the better. In fact, you may be seen as being unreasonable if you ever complain to him in future that you're tired of doing the lion's share. As far as he is concerned, you will have continued to stay with him and have sex with him and mother him, all whilst knowing full well he did not fulfill the bulk of your many requests (if any) to do more for you in return.


Most women need to do one thing above all else...pay hard attention to the combination of words and deeds.

Words alone are meaningless by themselves. Words are only genuine expressions when backed up by actions. And any actions in contradiction to the words always supersede the words. Some folks don't even want to deal with hypocrisy so they don't make any promises or use a lot of words.

Either way, actions (including words) trump words alone. SO...LOOK AT YOUR ACTIONS...if you talk and talk, but you suck it up & take it and don't walk...THAT is what men see.


I know this sounds discouraging, but the hard truth is that most men see growth as optional...and only if required in order to obtain what they want. Only the spiritually and emotionally advanced men will even appreciate one iota of your sacrifice in staying and remaining intimate and compliant whilst getting little to none of what you need. And so if the 6-month cycles are showing no change, you will need to accept that most men by and large don't value words over actions. And neither should you, when dealing with the vast majority of men...yes, even if you think or feel you know them well.

If you are ok with what you're getting as things stand, then proceed. Eyes wide open. With absolutely no further expectation of change on his part. Ever. Whatever else you may (or may not) ever get from him must be understood as pure gravy. Not to be relied upon.

Otherwise, your other choice is to leave. And to raise expectations a bit higher for the next gent, to a place where you are not carrying the lion's share ad infinitum. Remember, you always have a choice. And the truth is, we can't always live day-to-day with some folks even though we love them dearly. But to have the same conversation (over critical things) with no movement or resolution over and over again is like beating your head against a brick wall and somehow expecting a different outcome each time. It doesn't work like that just because we might badly hope for it, does it ?

There's another option altogether. If he's not up to carrying his share of the partner relationship load, you can always forego the sex, the shacking up and the bill-splitting (which he can handle on his own if he's loaded and you can save that $$$ for your kids). Instead, you can simply be friends. Real friends, without the sex and without you carrying his share. Where you can just hang out and talk and give one another support. No matter what else, you can always offer him your friendship. Whilst being open to a different partner to come into your life.

In that way, if ever you were to find he is really not into supporting you as a person or simply being your true friend without the sex and mothering, then you would be able to see it as it truly is and position yourself accordingly. Perhaps he is a wonderful friend and can truly be supportive of you emotionally just as a person, once sex and mothering is out of the picture. Or perhaps you'll see he has little regard or time for women he's not shagging. It's hard to say from here, but who knows?

Either way, all the best to you in finding balance and true partnership in your life. It's a universal issue for most of humanity at this time

Peace & blessings
7L

Soooo many good points here! Thank you so much for your insight. I think I'm understanding more and more about his personality. And part of that is that with him being extremely independent, I am actually the icing on the cake for him. He doesn't NEED me, but he wants me. And so, he doesn't want the drama or the work I think. He really just wants to be who he is and have someone love him for it, without judgement. I think he thinks that person is me because I avoid bringing up the things that bother me for fear of not being easy breezy.

[7luminaries]

Element

First of all...everyone wants to be loved as they are without judgment.
He is not special that way, tu sabes? We all welcome that.

But even if you love him as he is and no judgment, that doesn't mean he is mature enough to be in a mature, balanced, emotionally strong and generous, authentically loving partnership.

Plus, loving someone as they are doesn't mean you have to be with them, nor take their rubbish. You can love him from afar, no contact or limited contact, or you can love him simply as a person and as a friend. You can always include him as an active friend in your life day-to-day if he is not toxic, if he respects your boundaries and your needs, and if he is able to be a good friend and doesn't continually take from you more than he gives.

True friendship is a potentially reasonable, sustainable, mutually honouring and therefore authentically loving alternative to the "sex and mothering and some free meals for me, and sod all for you" deal he has currently got set up with you. If in fact he can be a good and true friend to you and actually give back a little -- without always taking via sex and mothering and free meals, etc. -- then I'd say it sounds like a much better deal that what's currently on offer. Where he actively values and supports your needs equally to his own and same for you re: him.

I have to say, though, I find it just appalling that he has plenty of money but frequently allows you to shell out for expenses, when he knows you have kids to support. Especially for extras like going out that are not necessary expenses in your budget. That is selfish and callous on his part almost beyond belief...almost like controlling someone through extortion, or breaking their bank just to toy with them and see how far they will go for you. And I think you are right to ask why and furthermore, to draw a hard line and say NO.

Good luck and stay strong ...and do NOT stand for gaslighting and mindeffery on his part. Nor I hope for endless rounds of empty words, per prior.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Element 5]

Originally Posted by smewii

Someone who behaves like that can be toxic and usually relationships can't last very long... 'cuz if you met someone who's a real man you wouldn't look back. To me, it does sound like he hasn't grown out of childhood entirely... many 40 year old men are like that, specially if their mother gave them everything like you say.

I feel that the hardness of life is what makes us mature and become "providers" instead of receivers, it looks like he hasn't gone trough real tough times. I at least have embraced the alpha male providing protecting kind of personality after having gone trough ****.

I don't know, I'm not a psychologist and it would probably take one to give you a definitive answer as to why he does that, but please be transparent with him and let him know, if he truly appreciates you and this is not just an emotional connection he has, he'll make an effort to evolve into a man who makes you feel more fulfilled.

Wish you the best! And if he doesn't make a move and start giving more (I respect that you are willing to pay for a lot of stuff despite you earning much less btw) you should consider shifting your attention to someone else.

Thank you for this perspective. I agree that his sheltering may very well have a lot to do with his lack of being a traditional provider type. It's hard to deal with sometimes, and other times it's refreshing to have my independence. There just has to be balance. And in some ways, it feels very much so out of balance.

[Element 5]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Element

First of all...everyone wants to be loved as they are without judgment.
He is not special that way, tu sabes? We all welcome that.

But even if you love him as he is and no judgment, that doesn't mean he is mature enough to be in a mature, balanced, emotionally strong and generous, authentically loving partnership.

Plus, loving someone as they are doesn't mean you have to be with them, nor take their rubbish. You can love him from afar, no contact or limited contact, or you can love him simply as a person and as a friend. You can always include him as an active friend in your life day-to-day if he is not toxic, if he respects your boundaries and your needs, and if he is able to be a good friend and doesn't continually take from you more than he gives.

True friendship is a potentially reasonable, sustainable, mutually honouring and therefore authentically loving alternative to the "sex and mothering and some free meals for me, and sod all for you" deal he has currently got set up with you. If in fact he can be a good and true friend to you and actually give back a little -- without always taking via sex and mothering and free meals, etc. -- then I'd say it sounds like a much better deal that what's currently on offer. Where he actively values and supports your needs equally to his own and same for you re: him.

I have to say, though, I find it just appalling that he has plenty of money but frequently allows you to shell out for expenses, when he knows you have kids to support. Especially for extras like going out that are not necessary expenses in your budget. That is selfish and callous on his part almost beyond belief...almost like controlling someone through extortion, or breaking their bank just to toy with them and see how far they will go for you. And I think you are right to ask why and furthermore, to draw a hard line and say NO.

Good luck and stay strong ...and do NOT stand for gaslighting and mindeffery on his part. Nor I hope for endless rounds of empty words, per prior.

Peace & blessings
7L

Often times, he spends more on me than I do on him. I think what I look for him to do is wear a cape sometimes, and not let me pay. I also know that he has said that he doesn't understand why women always expect men to pay for everything. So, I get it. I don't think he should always pay for everything. BUT, I must admit, there's a part of me that wants him to insist on paying because he knows I struggle. Not long ago, a bunch of us went to eat and I grabbed the check. He slipped a 50 in my bag. THAT'S the kind of thing I admire. Because, to him, 50 bucks is nothing.

[7luminaries]

Well...Element...I have to say that IMO it's not really fair to expect anyone to wear a cape, if by that you mean superman or superwoman....

BUT...nonetheless, it's absolute lunacy to try to socialise with big spenders or frequent spenders when as you say, you're struggling. You've got kids and real bills to pay. The fact that he so frequently doesn't seem to notice or care is beyond insensitive. It's just needlessly hurtful and cruel and it if were me, I would immediately stop putting myself in those situations.

If it were me, I'd stop picking up the check and have a hard conversation about how you need that money for real bills and that you can't keep up the free spending on extras just to hang out with him.

If it were me, I would tell him you can take him out for a coffee or a sandwich at a reasonable price. No £50 sandwiches !!!

Now if he wishes to take you out on his own dime to pricier bars or eateries, then that's fine because as you say dropping £50 is nothing to him. Fine, then, let him keep up appearances and let him know you simple can't afford to bother with appearances and there's no shame in that.

Your kids are more important than expensive dinners and nights out with him and the lads at various posh joints -- and if he can't understand that then you've got much bigger issues.

This is IMO a VERY crucial part of setting sustainable boundaries for managing your life day-to-day. Otherwise worst case, you end up broke whilst you & your kids do without necessities...not a good place to be.

Once you've got your necessities reliably covered and you're not draining away your savings on needless rubbish, then you can sort whether he's actually adding anything of real emotional and spiritual and logistical value to your life

Remember, this is all within your grasp and no one can make you overspend, even if they are shaming you, guilting you like hell, or simply blatantly exploiting your good will by simply expecting you to take care of them on the fly...over and over again.

One word... "NO. Sorry, I can't afford that right now. Do you want to go for a coffee or a sandwich? It's on me?".

Or...in typical the oh-so-careful UK way of dealing with overt louts...
"Really sorry, I've only just got mine...but if we make arrangements up front, I'll totally plan to cover you next time".

Peace & blessings
7L

[Element 5]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Well...Element...I have to say that IMO it's not really fair to expect anyone to wear a cape, if by that you mean superman or superwoman....

Let me clarify...I'm referring to a more traditional male role. I'm from the south where men are usually very gentlemanly as far as manners go. When I say wear a cape, I'm referring to manners. Opening doors, saying yessir and ma'am, etc. Paying for meals would fall under this category.

BUT...nonetheless, it's absolute lunacy to try to socialise with big spenders or frequent spenders when as you say, you're struggling. You've got kids and real bills to pay. The fact that he so frequently doesn't seem to notice or care is beyond insensitive. It's just needlessly hurtful and cruel and it if were me, I would immediately stop putting myself in those situations.

If it were me, I'd stop picking up the check and have a hard conversation about how you need that money for real bills and that you can't keep up the free spending on extras just to hang out with him.

If it were me, I would tell him you can take him out for a coffee or a sandwich at a reasonable price. No £50 sandwiches !!!

Now if he wishes to take you out on his own dime to pricier bars or eateries, then that's fine because as you say dropping £50 is nothing to him. Fine, then, let him keep up appearances and let him know you simple can't afford to bother with appearances and there's no shame in that.

Your kids are more important than expensive dinners and nights out with him and the lads at various posh joints -- and if he can't understand that then you've got much bigger issues.

This is IMO a VERY crucial part of setting sustainable boundaries for managing your life day-to-day. Otherwise worst case, you end up broke whilst you & your kids do without necessities...not a good place to be.

Once you've got your necessities reliably covered and you're not draining away your savings on needless rubbish, then you can sort whether he's actually adding anything of real emotional and spiritual and logistical value to your life

Remember, this is all within your grasp and no one can make you overspend, even if they are shaming you, guilting you like hell, or simply blatantly exploiting your good will by simply expecting you to take care of them on the fly...over and over again.

One word... "NO. Sorry, I can't afford that right now. Do you want to go for a coffee or a sandwich? It's on me?".

Or...in typical the oh-so-careful UK way of dealing with overt louts...
"Really sorry, I've only just got mine...but if we make arrangements up front, I'll totally plan to cover you next time".

Peace & blessings
7L

Good advice. I have to admit, he never outwardly seems to expect me to pay for things. It's more that I don't like that he would think that I expect HIM to pay for everything. So, when I do pull out my wallet, I would love it if he would say "no I got it" about 90% of the time and then let me pay here and there in small amounts. He definitely isn't a southern gentleman. But, my fear is, that because he has many adolescent behaviors, that financial issues stem from that. It's like he hasn't really ever had to take care of anyone but himself, and he sort of treats everyone, sometimes even his daughter, like they are fine without his assistance. It's also a sign of laziness if you ask me. I tend to take care of everyone around me. I often pay for things for other people because it makes me feel good. And I don't do it if I am hurting with money. He does that sometimes, but I think it's because he feels obligated rather than because he wants to.

[Lynn]

Hello

It all depends on how much your willing to honestly at times "put up with" as so many are looking for "mommy" as that aspect of their upbringing never had the umbilical cord cut at times.

I was "mommy" for 33 years to my now ex....did almost everything at times a mom does for a child. Yet to most he seemed very functional. It was not that way at home. It was to the point where he had a "Blanket like Linus from the Peanuts" that he had me mend so many times. I of course fell into doing it, he would make demands and I bowed to them.

Now I have a "messy" one LOL but he is loving and gentle to me. I can put up with mess as that I can work with cleaning up. He makes no demands on me but does like his back tickled when I wake up in the middle of the night. I am OK with that one as he too massages my aching shoulder.

Relationships are about the "Give and Take" in sharing. If you can find that you can slide by the smaller things. Head in the lap though HMMMM. I think I might draw the line there. LOL a fart of two might fix that one for good.


Lynn

[7luminaries]

LOL...........hahaha

You're hilarious, Lynn !!!

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Element 5

Good advice. I have to admit, he never outwardly seems to expect me to pay for things. It's more that I don't like that he would think that I expect HIM to pay for everything. So, when I do pull out my wallet, I would love it if he would say "no I got it" about 90% of the time and then let me pay here and there in small amounts. He definitely isn't a southern gentleman. But, my fear is, that because he has many adolescent behaviors, that financial issues stem from that. It's like he hasn't really ever had to take care of anyone but himself, and he sort of treats everyone, sometimes even his daughter, like they are fine without his assistance. It's also a sign of laziness if you ask me. I tend to take care of everyone around me. I often pay for things for other people because it makes me feel good. And I don't do it if I am hurting with money. He does that sometimes, but I think it's because he feels obligated rather than because he wants to.

Element hello there!

IMO his actions are conniving and exploitative. And above all selfish.
And from his perspective, it's quite efficient -- as it's really working for him to be selfish and let others do without, or else to wait for them to step up and cater to him.

IMO...instead of making excuses for folks like this, I say call it out and divert that time and energy and $$ back to yourself, your children, and his child (or tell him he needs to be doing it, for her sake).

He may or may not change, and if he does change at all, it will usually be quite small and over many years.

It's really up to you to decide how much you value yourself. Because you are more than just his mommy and sex partner and his sometimes-wallet.

It's up to you to decide if your role in life is truly to be his step-and-fetchit, or whether he can get his own damn coffee & sammich from now on.

And pay for it too for God's sake.

Peace & blessings
7L

[Rozie]

I would worry about your own issues rather then his. You either accept someone as they are or move on. You aren't going to change him. It isn't your job to change him. It is your job to work on your own issues.

Once you understand how he is and where he is coming from, then you can work with him better. That would be making adjustments and trying to achieve balance. There are advantages and disadvantages and only you can say what is reasonable for you. You cannot expect someone else to fulfill your emotional needs. A partnership is about working together and companionship and family.

We do have needs and wants and it is only fair to provide comfort and love and expect that in return in whatever way works for you. You need to be clear with yourself and with your partner about what you are willing to do and what you need. First you deal with your own issues and don't lay them at his feet.

The paying thing is something I understand. I don't like to be paid for and I like to pay. It is kind of a control issue. That is my issue. My budget and responsibilities are my issue. It would be up to me to say what I need. I would say "I am broke but I want to pay my way. I will treat sometimes and you will treat sometimes but I will only pay what I can afford. If you want to do something more expensive then you pay." Something like that.

If you are feeling pressured to participate in gatherings that are too expensive for you, then don't go.

It is important to say what you want. You don't always want the man to pay but you want him to treat you like a lady. Prince Charming would pull your chair out and open the door for you, simply because he is charming.