Disillusionment and Christianity

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Dynamist

Hey SeaZen,

I appreciated your post. I realize that I can't get people on my bandwagon and it isn't my job to do so. I can only speak my truth and move on. But sometimes it gets so painful to watch people get condemned left, right and center! And I didn't realize how painful it was until I myself was condemned. I keep thinking, "Whoa whoa whoa! Love and guidance is really different from fear and control guys..." If we're going to evolve together we really have to learn how to operate in love and unity and fear and division.

I remember when I had my spiritual awakening from my religious stupor and my first reaction was to try to awaken others to my path and awareness. I then quickly found that this is not only difficult but ineffective and presumptuous. We all have our paths to follow and our own spiritual pace. If a certain group of people's message does not resonate with you it is pointless for you to change them or for you to adopt their beliefs that do not resonate with you and time to move on as far as sharing your specific spiritual beliefs.

You can still however be friends and help one another raise their vibrations. For example, if you find one struggling with false concepts such "rejection" you can help them in very practical common sense non religious belief based way. This, IMO, is the best way to "evolve together" when spiritual beliefs differ from one to the next.

I really enjoy the Bible! But the more I read it, the deeper the words become for me, the less I see it as others do. I take religion class and when I learn of the history and how things got put together I think, "Why some books and not the other?" Things don't add up. Or the way some parts seem to be missing. I want to learn more, but when I learn something, "Only the pastor can truly interpret the Scripture" or "Well the pastor said that the Bible said..." I think, "But did you read it yourself? Did you meditate on it, did you reflect? Do you know the history or how the Bible was put together? Would it even make a difference?" Probably not. The fear has become so great that people would shrug it off and just keep on doing what they do too afraid to make a change...

Im glad to hear that you enjoy the bible and that you are finding deeper higher meaning than what the church or your pastor is telling you. I personally do not believe in original sin, hell, a devil, and a required human sacrifice of Jesus to save us from it all or that he came down to make himself an object of worship. I have come to believe that Jesus came here to tell us that we don't need a middleman called the church but all have a direct connect to god. That we are all sons and daughters of god and that if wake up from our illusions, we can do all of the wonderful things Jesus can do. In other words, he was a master that came down to teach us how to elevate our spirituality and vibration, nothing more nothing less. The religious order of the time saw the threat he posed to their power and had him killed. Of course, you must come to your own truth and conclusions about these things. instead of listening to your pastor or me for that matter.

Before the forum reset, we had a very scholarly christian member called "Reverend Keith" who is very knowledgable about the history of the bible and other texts. His level of analysis was very deep and high and not at the doctrinal face value that many pastors use. Unfortunately all of those posts are gone but he does have a website and Im sure if you contact him, he will be very happy to answer any and all questions you may have regarding christianity. His understandings of christianity are far more advanced than mere belief in religious doctrine. His beliefs and understandings seem similar to yours.

This is his website that deals with christianity specifically
http://perennis.pathstoknowledge.com...s-a-christian/

This is his new website that deals with spirituality
http://pathstoknowledge.com/
This site also contains a forum. You may find it useful in connecting with others of a like christian mind.

I also recommend a book called "conversations with god volume 1" by Neale Donald Walsch to help put the variety of worldly religious beliefs in their proper perspective.

Oh well...all about patience and tolerance I guess...I appreciated Shim's response though. I know we don't all know the answers but I thought his words were food for thought.

Yes it is about patience and tolerance. Proselytization has no tolerance and I present challenges and debate to those behave in such a manner and I would personally take anything a proselytizer says with a grain of salt and a high level of skepticism and recommend you do the same. That said take whatever responses challenge you and offer you food for thought and go with it regardless of the source! I wish you the best in your search and on your path.

SeaZen

Originally Posted by SeaZen

Welcome to the club Dyna! You are not the first the last or the only one that has struggled with this.

I have met many people who have a heart of gold who are not christian as well and have asked the same questions you did. How can a loving god condemn a soul to eternal torment just because they happened to be unfortunate enough to be born in mongolia or some other country that "the good news" of the bible hasn't reached yet? Trust this questioning and instinct and move forward with it. It will take you to a truthful, wonderful, loving place devoid of religious fear. I asked shim this question on another thread and he was unable or unwilling to respond. This is quite telling about whether you should listen to others as opposed to your own heart.

Much love,
SeaZen

Mark 16:15 King James Bible
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Just for FYI there are 112,000 results in Google alone for Christian Missionaries in Mongolia.

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Shim

Mark 16:15 King James Bible
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Just for FYI there are 112,000 results in Google alone for Christian Missionaries in Mongolia.

LOL, I was just throwing "mongolia" out there. Besides, google results do not equate actual statistics as to the number of missionaries and how many people they have reached. Im positive the 112000 figure does not equal the number of active christian missionaries in mongolia. Even if there are christian missionaries in mongolia Im sure those missionaries haven't reached out to everyone in that country. And what of the islamic countries where christian proselytization is illegal, harshly punished and non-existent?

This means that there are still many kindly, loving, non-christian grandmothers out there with hearts of gold that your psychotic, dysfunctional god will sentence to hell for an eternity of torment when they die solely due to the misfortune of their geographical birth that did not allow them the "opportunity" to hear "the good news". No thanks, you can keep him. I don't want nothing to do with your idea of god.

Originally Posted by SeaZen

LOL, I was just throwing "mongolia" out there. Besides, google results do not equate actual statistics as to the number of missionaries and how many people they have reached. Im positive the 112000 figure does not equal the number of active christian missionaries in mongolia. Even if there are christian missionaries in mongolia Im sure those missionaries haven't reached out to everyone in that country. And what of the islamic countries where christian proselytization is illegal, harshly punished and non-existent?

This means that there are still many kindly, loving, non-christian grandmothers out there with hearts of gold that your psychotic, dysfunctional god will sentence to hell for an eternity of torment when they die solely due to the misfortune of their geographical birth that did not allow them the "opportunity" to hear "the good news". No thanks, you can keep him. I don't want nothing to do with your idea of god.

Good point, why don't you seazen as a "borderline unbeliever" go to an Islamic forums and share what you have to say? Perhaps the teaching of Christ that Christians follow makes us more tolerant of your ways, but evenmoreso Matthew 10:34 says it best. And no I won't help you interpret the scripture as follows Matthew 7:6 based on "experience" with your blindsided hardheadedness.

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Shim

Good point, why don't you seazen as a "borderline unbeliever" go to an Islamic forums and share what you have to say? .

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as "borderline unbeliever" is concerned. Im sure it has absolutely nothing to do with my spirituality but I am curious. Do explain! As far as the rest, I have no need or desire to proselytize on an islamic forum or any other religious forum as that is not the way I am (see my previous post to Dynamist). Yes I will share my point of view but I am not presumptuous enough to believe that it is the only way and the ultimate truth.

Perhaps the teaching of Christ that Christians follow makes us more tolerant of your ways, but evenmoreso Matthew 10:34 says it best. And no I won't help you interpret the scripture as follows Matthew 7:6 based on "experience" with your blindsided hardheadedness

Tolerant? Hmmmmm.....Taking a look at religious christian history....I don't think so. Religious christian history is full of intolerance. In the old days of the spanish inquistion they burned pagans and sexually free people to death. In the americas, they committed genocide against the native peoples and stole their spirituality, enslaved and tortured africans etc. and justified it all by the words of the bible. Every time secular society rights these wrongs, christian religion grudgingly and latently accepts and transfers their intolerance to a new minority. Today it is towards gays and lesbians.

Tolerance? Give me a break! The very definition of tolerance is to allow others to believe what they choose to believe WITHOUT INTERFERENCE OR PROSELYTIZATION even though it is unpalatable to your own personal beliefs.

Hardheadedness? If you define that by someone that refuses to blindly accept your religious proselytization then I am "guilty" (in the legal sense) and happily so! As far as soliciting your help interpreting scripture...uhhh....no thanks.

It seems like as I go further in my journey, I meet more and more religious people who aren't tolerant or emanating love but rather fear and this desire to convert the world no matter who they trample over and it really is very disheartening as I'd like to believe that those who say they are part of the Jesus fold are like him or truly trying to be. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John make my heart sing! I my spirit lifts up and I just want to have a long conversation with the one who radiates so much love and kindness, tolerance, beauty! Really, beauty like that must be from something far more than just the Earth. His spirit was godly!

I was talking to my non Christian friend the other day and she was telling me about her experiences when she was invited to church, Bible study, and around some of her other Christian friends. She was open! She wanted to know what all of this was about! In between telling her she was going to hell if she didn't believe, kicking some folks out of the church for their abominations, explaining to her that those born deformed are deformed because they're sinners or their family sinned and it is part of the "generational curse" , telling her that her family in China who have never heard "the Word" but who are trying to do good work and make the best of their life are also going to hell and if missionaries don't go there then they are going to suffer, after telling her that they need to "pray for her" and that only the Christian is forgiven after killing, stealing, lying, cheating, abusing their wives because they have been "baptized", and that the others who did something wrong and are sorry are not and are still "going to hell too", she decided, "They can keep their prayers! I don't want to be a Christian! There's all these good people in the world who aren't Christian and they're the ones who are going to go to hell while the ones who kill and condemn and do wrong are the only ones who are going to heaven because they are Christian? No thanks. It doesn't make any sense! I'll just keep believing in God, doing good, and taking care of the Earth." God bless her!

It's painful. It's really painful. And it's disheartening. It's so bad that those who don't find it to make sense or don't like certain things "have a demon" or those who disagree are part of the "spirit of iniquity". I'm disheartened. We kill and stomp out anything we don't understand or we decide that they are "eternally condemned"! I pray it is not by Paul that these words are coming out of people's mouths. I keep reading and rereading trying to see where all this stuff came from. We get into the scholars and the doctrines and we forget the LOVE (which says so much more than anything this world and its people can ever say!) that has been so preached throughout every religion. I was raised Christian/ catholic and that's why I chose to come here. So I can have restored faith in the group of people who baptized me twice, whose churches I attended every Sunday hoping to get to know God better and to know about the one who emanated so much love! I wanted to have restored faith in the people who first introduced me to the Spirit, who by dreams and my divine intervention I was protected from many potentially dangerous situations. Who by dreams I was protected from possible childhood depression from losing the one person in the world I ever knew that didn't go around putting people down. Ever! And here I am discovering now that for many, even the Spirit is being rebuked. I could've chosen anything after my experience, but I chose the Christian religion...and I regret it.
When I look, I feel like we neglect the true message of Jesus for some long studies we do for everything after the book of John with a primary focus on Paul, mix it up with more man-made doctrine, and then throw it into a blender and say that no one else can say anything unless of course...they have a PhD or are up there in the church. I think I'm just going to walk away now.

Is there a way that I can have this thread closed? If no, I'm sorry everyone for posting in here. My hope was that I could receive some positive energy and restored faith in those who call themselves Christian-folk. I wanted to turn to others and say, "Why all the attacks on Christianity or some other religious folk? Don't doubt or put them down! Try to understand where they are coming from. Yes, there is fear there, but fear can be found anywhere!" I wanted to say, "At least read the words from Jesus! The red text! Isn't it amazing? Don't you feel Spirit in these words?!?" I wanted to go talk to Christians about what I began to understand and how happy I was because of how empowering Jesus was to the people and I was informed that I was "misconstruing the word the of God." So now I look and I see that much of this is a karma.

Please if possible, close this thread. Or at least, no one post in it.

[ArtisticAthlete]

Originally Posted by Dynamist

It seems like as I go further in my journey, I meet more and more religious people who aren't tolerant or emanating love but rather fear and this desire to convert the world no matter who they trample over and it really is very disheartening as I'd like to believe that those who say they are part of the Jesus fold are like him or truly trying to be. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John make my heart sing! I my spirit lifts up and I just want to have a long conversation with the one who radiates so much love and kindness, tolerance, beauty! Really, beauty like that must be from something far more than just the Earth. His spirit was godly!

Tis is life!

I used to frequent a different Christian forum before I found SF and stopped logging on because I felt like something was missing. I noticed that many people were struggling (including myself before I became conscious) and I thought that was odd, seeing as Christianity was supposed to "set you free". After realizing that a lot of Christian teachings somewhat missed the mark when it comes to what Jesus was trying to really trying to teach (and how we are more powerful than the Christian church allows us to believe), I decided I'd share what I've learned. I posted this website (http://www.askrealjesus.com/persgrowth/growthmain.html) with a thread title of "Is life NOT working out for you? Read this!!" and told them to read this website then go and make a difference in this world.

Less than 24hrs later, I got a PM from a moderator telling me that my thread was deleted. Saaayy whaaaa!? Since when is empowering people wrong? So sad. Shame on them! (Perhaps they weren't to fond of the website name. Lol.) With that said, if people really want to know the truth, they will find it. Christian leaders, people, etc. cannot keep people from the Truth. Hence, "...seek, and ye shall find." Don't let others (which, is normally, unconscious people because "...they know not what they do.") keep you down. Stay positive!

[Kaere]

Before everyone starts squawking about how awful staff is and how we close threads willy-nilly without reason or method, this thread is closed by request by the OP and because of several rude interactions between members, which you will no longer see because they've been removed.