Few questions about Astral Projection.Mind anwering?

[CrystalSong]

[quote=slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Carnate

Anyone asking questions here on this forum is being answered by people just like them,searchers,always looking,always trying to help others,if there is one person here who is a "bona fide" real deal teacher/master I would ask "what are you doing here"
I know what has happened in my life,I can only tell others my experiences,but I do know that there are masters ( self anointed ) then there are Masters who really have learnt their craft the proper/correct way,serve an apprenticeship, it maybe over many incarnations,but these forums serve a public service,just for people like you and me,when I read some of the things asked here on this forum I ask myself "why",as in why do you want to know about these things,I ask myself why someone gives a certain answer? and after 64 years of living and thinking you get very intuitive and are able to see through the question and see what the real problem is,its usually physical not esoteric.

This forum and some others like it are a good stepping stone onto the learning ladder,these are usually young folk in their early/mid twenties who in 30 years time will be answering the questions they are now posing themselves,or they will get very lost and make a business of it,in that case they miss the point of being here (earth )
I have always kept my spiritual/esoteric side separate to my daily life,whether it is working in a shop" life of service" to others,or I maybe a businessman or lawyer who still serves the public!
But this work is different, and its for free,no charge for my "white hairs".!

Regards Billy.

Some very talented and highly aware and evolved people are in this forum. each for different reasons, usually it's out of love for other and service. Technically we are all seeking and growing, no matter where we are on the Path. There is no end to knowing.

I would suggest that it is not possible to stay separate from one's spiritual life when at work after a certain point. All life becomes spiritual, holy, revered - every aspect of it. There is no separation.
Whether one ask for money for their services or not.

A business man expects to get paid for his time and service, so does a doctor or lawyer or anyone who gives of their time, ability and knowledge to others. Why would spiritual practitioners suddenly be "lost" if they respected themselves enough to treat themselves as everyone else who provides services, skills, knowledge or old fashion manual labor and receives a wage? What 'point' did they miss exactly by using honing their abilities, talents and higher connections to the point to be useful, beneficial, needed and desired in the community enough to be able to help, heal and advise people 40-50 hours a week.

How does it serve the world if no spiritual practitioner can make a living off of that which they have given their life and passion too? If they must work some job which is not in their specialty line then the world looses much needed services.
If doctors weren't paid and were expected to donate their services and time for free to strangers it would be very hard to find doctors because they would be selling insurance or something else they could make a living at and people would be dying in the streets because they did not value doctors enough to bother paying them.
How many teachers would be in schools if they could not earn a living there? How many Professors in Universities if they could only lecture and receive nothing for their time and expertise and years of training?

No one wins if spiritual practitioners have to limit their services and time spent keeping them selves in the place to be able to provide instant high level service to only a few hours a week or less because of a cultural belief that healers, spiritual teachers, psychics and so one shouldn't be paid.

This thinking seem to be a perverse form of bigotry unbecoming of people who wish to move through life with fairness and respect - regardless of anothers race, sex, class, color or occupation.

[Podshell]

Unfortunately in this era people are very mistrustful of many aspects of spirituality and adding a charge can kill what you offer,so many survive on donations,yet still get called con artists.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by CrystalSong

Please speak for yourself only, don't make broad sweeping assumptions about others when you say that people consciously leaving their body are not doing so and it's an ego thing and that it's unbearable, or that complete shock accompanies people who's third eye opens if they aren't with a bona fide 'blah blah'. Fear does not have to be part of the process, it can happen very gently and it can happen in states of rapture. There are many paths to this knowledge.

It's a big forum and not everyone has had your experience, and some people here are very capable conscious projectors and prefer it over astral travel, nor needs a teacher to smoothly do it the first time.
Lots of diversity of experience here. :)

I am speaking for myself?
That's the point of the forum,to give input "blah,blah",and I stand by what I have said,fear is the big killer in astral travel,fear of the unknown and the shock to your system from raising the kundalini and/or opening the third eye is very real,its talked about like its fun thing to do,its not,its serious and the consequences can be harmful physically not just to the pshyche.
And sadly some poor folk ask genuine questions and are answered by others who have the same or less experience.
The amount of online studied diplomas I have see on office walls of so called experts is staggering,in fact the only persons I ever trusted were a reiki masseur who was hands on and an iridologist who I went to for her knowledge of Bach flower remedies.
In the 70's I spent a small fortune on so called "spiritual teachers/masters" I ended up knowing more than they did,and I told one lady that we must of read the same books!
If anyone has opened their third eye on this forum or raised their kundalini then they should know better than teaching others,its the fastest way to the loony bin,some folk here are already showing signs of psychosis,you can tell by their questions/symptoms,they should not be encouraged by amateur esoteric councillors, its real and bloody dangerous to them.

Regards Billy

[Carnate]

I know this is going off topic, and is likely counter to what Billy intended with his comment, but I felt a need to weigh in.


It's an odd thing, this idea that people shouldn't receive money for spiritual services.

Some people explain it in terms of money being a form of energy; if I'm expending one form of energy for your benefit, then you should pay me in another form of energy. Other people see it in a more 'mundane' manner; it's a service much like any other and should be treated like any other form of employment. And there are those who seem to think that being spiritual should result in you being in service to everyone else, with no cost/charge, and somehow still survive.

I've got a view that's somewhere in the middle of these three.. in that, a truly enlightened person will be able to provide their services for free as all their financial needs will be met. As in, they will be in a situation where they are able to provide their services for free. However, most people are on the journey towards this goal and still need to function in this material world. There's no shame in this. If one person wants to be an artist or veterinarian, or dancer or plumber.. they get paid, or maybe aim to get paid depending on their field of interest. It's not suddenly a different ballgame when it's a spiritual service. Yes, some spiritual people tend to want to provide a free service, but this is not an indication that it's a prerequisite for the 'industry'.

I've met a wide range of spiritual teachers/healers, tarot readers, astrologers, clairvoyants, psychics, and many more in my life. Several of these were enlightened enough to be able to converse with me, without me needing to actually speak; they could read my mind. I mean this in the most literal sense. All of them requested payment in cash, whether as a donation or a set fee for service.

[Carnate]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

I am speaking for myself?
That's the point of the forum,to give input "blah,blah",and I stand by what I have said,fear is the big killer in astral travel,fear of the unknown and the shock to your system from raising the kundalini and/or opening the third eye is very real,its talked about like its fun thing to do,its not,its serious and the consequences can be harmful physically not just to the pshyche.
And sadly some poor folk ask genuine questions and are answered by others who have the same or less experience.
The amount of online studied diplomas I have see on office walls of so called experts is staggering,in fact the only persons I ever trusted were a reiki masseur who was hands on and an iridologist who I went to for her knowledge of Bach flower remedies.
In the 70's I spent a small fortune on so called "spiritual teachers/masters" I ended up knowing more than they did,and I told one lady that we must of read the same books!
If anyone has opened their third eye on this forum or raised their kundalini then they should know better than teaching others,its the fastest way to the loony bin,some folk here are already showing signs of psychosis,you can tell by their questions/symptoms,they should not be encouraged by amateur esoteric councillors, its real and bloody dangerous to them.

Regards Billy

There's been a number of posts so far suggesting that other people have different experiences to you. Is there a chance that you're over-reacting?

You've got to keep in mind that most of the suggestions made in these forums are 'simple stuff', and are not likely to lead to any harm/hardship. The fear some people feel when starting to astral travel is not universal, nor is that fear likely to result in long term harm. This is partly why people come here.. to get help understanding what's happening. Not everyone can control what happens when they sleep; they astral travel involuntarily, experience sleep paralysis, or have any number of other events that cause them concern. Should they suffer in silence?

It seems like your presenting yourself as an authority on who can be trusted, and are suggesting that few.. maybe no one here has any real knowledge. Rather than deny what other people are saying, it would be more beneficial if you could provide knowledge/insight into how they are wrong, and in the right way to achieve their goals.

[CrystalSong]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

I am speaking for myself?
That's the point of the forum,to give input "blah,blah",and I stand by what I have said,fear is the big killer in astral travel,fear of the unknown and the shock to your system from raising the kundalini and/or opening the third eye is very real,its talked about like its fun thing to do,its not,its serious and the consequences can be harmful physically not just to the pshyche.
And sadly some poor folk ask genuine questions and are answered by others who have the same or less experience.
The amount of online studied diplomas I have see on office walls of so called experts is staggering,in fact the only persons I ever trusted were a reiki masseur who was hands on and an iridologist who I went to for her knowledge of Bach flower remedies.
In the 70's I spent a small fortune on so called "spiritual teachers/masters" I ended up knowing more than they did,and I told one lady that we must of read the same books!
If anyone has opened their third eye on this forum or raised their kundalini then they should know better than teaching others,its the fastest way to the loony bin,some folk here are already showing signs of psychosis,you can tell by their questions/symptoms,they should not be encouraged by amateur esoteric councillors, its real and bloody dangerous to them.

Regards Billy

Technically I agree with you on the potential for someone to react in fear the first time. However adding to potential fear levels may not be helpful. The human mind is like a sponge absorbing everything, but its powers of discerning aren't nearly as developed.
So there's the potential that a person reading that a thing (awakening, opening chakras, kundalini, OBE etc) is scary or harmful will then react in that manner should they have the experience themselves. We are after all herd animals and learn from each other.
While the awareness of any chakra opening, kundalini rising or OBE happening for the first time can be surprising, the form that surprise is translated into doesn't need to be one of fear. There are many other options for how one can react to it. Ecstasy is a very realistic reaction as well, as is just pure NOW presence as the body experiences it.

If one jumps up and screams and runs to the furthest corner of the room when seeing a spider it is likely they will have the same response to profound alterations in consciousness, because they mind has allowed itself to react to things in that manner.
However if one pragmatically gets a glass and a sheet of paper to scoop the spider up and release it outside then it is likely they will deal with unexpected spiritual experiences similarly.
If a person squats down and studies the spider and finds interest and beauty and appreciation in it's beingness and feels love for it is as likely that surprising spiritual experiences will be met with as much interest and appreciation.

Personally all these experiences have been met with extreme surprise shock and utter fascination when I had them. But I have an innate trust in myself to find my way through circumstances without falling apart and screeching across the room in hysterics because a 'proverbial spider' was seen. So I prefer to advise people from that place of trusting themselves to work through something rather than feeding their fear about it. Staying open has the potential to lead to higher understanding and perhaps even mastery of it, where fear tends to just shut it down and create a new obstacle to now have to surmount if one wants to actually explore this human potential in whatever area.

In terms of this forum I find it useful and helpful for people experiencing extreme spiritual perceptions to calm them, acknowledge their experience and the validity of it, and then if it seems useful to offer tools and advice to help them separate their consciousness from their ego so that they can control the reactions of their mind to the unknown. Much of becoming spiritually aware is after all realizing that the mind/ego is not the totality of the self.
It is the mind discovering that it is not the totality of the self that causes the biggest shock, that it doesn't and can't know everything, that there exists a great number of things that it didn't know about previously and can not influence, that there is a Higher and unseen self which has ancient wisdom and knowledge and is the aspect of the self which continues beyond death of the body and mind.
Accepting this and moving into a new working relationship with the Spirit and the Body (which has it's own wisdom and ability to move energy) assists one to further open to ALL That Is, fearfulness about the process's and experiences of this awakening of consciousness however builds huge hurdles and obstacles which are very likely to stop the awakening process or make it a needlessly fearful, shocking destructive process.

I'm sorry you found only one person that you trusted during the 70's and felt you knew the same or more than all the rest you met. How frustrating that must have been for you and isolating.

I've found there comes a point in the Journey where one is highly unlikely to find someone more advanced, but instead finds many peers with wildly diverse tool sets. This is where we need to stop looking outward and instead step into our own mastery and hone those discovered abilities and perceptions to their highest level possible and master our ability to be open, receptive and in a place of abiding Love for all as we continue to integrate the Spirit, Mind and Body into a honed team which work as a cohesive ONENESS.

[CrystalSong]

Originally Posted by Podshell

Unfortunately in this era people are very mistrustful of many aspects of spirituality and adding a charge can kill what you offer,so many survive on donations,yet still get called con artists.

Yes, I agree Podshell.
When people develop their instinct and ability to sense the unseen they can feel into another person for the truth, feel whether they can help them or not.
You can go to an event with Healers, Mediums, and Psychics and literally experience feeling drawn to the one who is most able to help you were you are currently at in the Path.
This can be experienced as an internal draw, or perhaps seen as a luminescence around the person, or felt as a lightness in the air around a person, or seen as an aura, or a little voice inside may say "this One, or that one over there'. There are many ways to perceive where higher level assistance lies.
However if one is closed off to help, doesn't believe, is in resistance then not even Jesus himself could help them until they open their heart a little and stop letting their doubting Thomas mind run the show. Earth and the human experience is a Free Will Zone. We are utterly free to stay in rejection at all times.

To those who would not pay for services rendered, that is a statement more about them and their ethics and morality than it is about the Service Provider. Many take advantage, it is because they are a thief in their current nature, always looking for the short cut, the advantage to be had, something for nothing. These are not evolved enough to receive this level of help anyway. Perhaps in time they will be able to, should they chose to stop being so closed to possibility and feeling they have so little that they must take from others.
On the other hand those with respect, who would treat others as they wish to be treated would compensate the service provider who has taken time out of their day to help and offer services to the extent they can to another person.

Many Would-Be Practitioners as they first come into a talent or ability will, like a medical Intern working in a hospital as part of their on-going education, offer their services for free. They will likely state, "I am learning this ability but have not mastered it, please understand we are both walking in faith and outcomes are not guaranteed" or something along those lines. They are learning their craft and your feedback is their payment. It helps them to hone their craft and develop their confidence.
In time, with much practice, they will come to understand the many variables, and unusual circumstance that can arise and how to deal with them, they will hone their mind, be able to work with inter-plane beings, learn to switch into a vessel to receive higher knowledge and translate it into human language, or higher frequency's into healing powers and so on and so on - there is much to know, learn and master on many levels.

When they have in time mastered it, they don't need guinni pigs to practice on anymore, their abilities are honed and they have mastery and can competently offer their service's to those ready to receive.
Like the Intern graduating with their Doctorate they will not and can not work for free anymore and likely have many debts to pay back from the years they put into the learning and field work to become a consummated professional and master in their field or fields.

Only those with small minds would not recognize that someone with mastery should be compensated for their time and energy.

Render unto Caesars what is Caesars.

I will say one other thing, to those in this forum who send PM's asking for free psychic readings and who do not thank, give feedback or some other form of sign of appreciation. The Universe responds in like energy to what you put out. When you show your appreciation, others will show you their appreciation. When you blow off help, without even a barest nod - then people will treat you the same when you help them. What you put out or don't put out is what the Universe mirrors back to you. Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself.

[slowsnake]

Originally Posted by Carnate

I know this is going off topic, and is likely counter to what Billy intended with his comment, but I felt a need to weigh in.


It's an odd thing, this idea that people shouldn't receive money for spiritual services.

Some people explain it in terms of money being a form of energy; if I'm expending one form of energy for your benefit, then you should pay me in another form of energy. Other people see it in a more 'mundane' manner; it's a service much like any other and should be treated like any other form of employment. And there are those who seem to think that being spiritual should result in you being in service to everyone else, with no cost/charge, and somehow still survive.

I've got a view that's somewhere in the middle of these three.. in that, a truly enlightened person will be able to provide their services for free as all their financial needs will be met. As in, they will be in a situation where they are able to provide their services for free. However, most people are on the journey towards this goal and still need to function in this material world. There's no shame in this. If one person wants to be an artist or veterinarian, or dancer or plumber.. they get paid, or maybe aim to get paid depending on their field of interest. It's not suddenly a different ballgame when it's a spiritual service. Yes, some spiritual people tend to want to provide a free service, but this is not an indication that it's a prerequisite for the 'industry'.

I've met a wide range of spiritual teachers/healers, tarot readers, astrologers, clairvoyants, psychics, and many more in my life. Several of these were enlightened enough to be able to converse with me, without me needing to actually speak; they could read my mind. I mean this in the most literal sense. All of them requested payment in cash, whether as a donation or a set fee for service.

Hello Carnage,
You are quite correct in your assumption about me,what I am trying to say is not coming across the right way.
That's just my lack of education, and I mean lack of education, I am trying in my own way to get a point across and I am not succeeding,
I want folk to read what I am saying,not what I am not saying!.its very easy to read between the lines and come up with an entirely different proposition.
Have you ever experienced the "dark night of the soul" Carnate,I am quite sure by reading your posts that you have,well imagine some poor person being permanently stuck there,imagine being so lost inside your own headspace that you can't escape, imagine being told( by well meaning people ) that its just your vibrations increasing,or its your kundalini and chakra's being activated,what if it's not that!
I will stand by what I say,which is basically,"be careful what you wish for",once you lose the plot you don't get it back,and whoever advised you is responsible for that,you are a smart cookie Carnage,and,I think you know what I mean!

Regards Billy.

[Carnate]

Originally Posted by slowsnake

Hello Carnage,
You are quite correct in your assumption about me,what I am trying to say is not coming across the right way.
That's just my lack of education, and I mean lack of education, I am trying in my own way to get a point across and I am not succeeding,
I want folk to read what I am saying,not what I am not saying!.its very easy to read between the lines and come up with an entirely different proposition.
Have you ever experienced the "dark night of the soul" Carnate,I am quite sure by reading your posts that you have,well imagine some poor person being permanently stuck there,imagine being so lost inside your own headspace that you can't escape, imagine being told( by well meaning people ) that its just your vibrations increasing,or its your kundalini and chakra's being activated,what if it's not that!
I will stand by what I say,which is basically,"be careful what you wish for",once you lose the plot you don't get it back,and whoever advised you is responsible for that,you are a smart cookie Carnage,and,I think you know what I mean!

Regards Billy.

Thanks for checking in on the thread, Billy. I only came across the term 'dark night of the soul' yesterday, and my answer is 'maybe'.. I don't really know enough about it, or how it could relate to my situation to say for sure.


As for your comments, I'm sure many people here know that you've got other people's best interests in mind. You're offering cautionary words to help people avoid harm. From what I can see, people aren't strictly disputing your interest in helping others. They're responding to what appears to be generalisations that don't fit their experiences, and at times, concludes incorrectly that everyone here is wrong in some manner.

I think what's happened here is you've tried to get a point across, and used certain phrases to create an impact in an effort to force that point. People have responded to your writing method rather than the message you've been trying to get across.

In short, it people are going to be a bit defensive when it looks like someone is saying "you're all lying" and "stop giving advice because it will lead people into psychosis".


In many ways you are right. If your subtle energy fields become damaged, it causes damage to the physical form. Psychosis, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, etc can often be explained as originating from damage to the subtle bodies. People should be aware of this.. but it should be explained in a way that helps them access their 'psychic gifts' without hardship.

We are here to evolve spiritually. We need to adapt and evolve in a way that allows us to make use of our extra senses and abilities. As a metaphor, we don't remove our teeth because we might accidentally bite our tongue.

[slowsnake]

Hello Carnate,
Thanks for the reply,sorry about misspelling your name,I use a 7" tablet and my fingertips are bigger than the keys,I must of caught the "g" under the "t",next time I will review before submit,no offence meant,but,how did you like being "Carnage not Carnate" for the day!,lol,hahaha.

Kind Regards Billy.