Observer vs Observed

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

I would like to throw a couple of more wrenches in the fan blade with you guys if you don't mind.

#1. The only reson that we can experience anything at all is because of duality and without those opposites being in duality we can be exist in what we call reality and that middle grey area is where we are interacting with the world and all of this that we are capable of ever experiencing would cease to exist if we did not have duality.

#2 the phrase "both sides of the same coin" ergo not denying we live in duality but then saying that it's just a different expression of the same thing Ergo "all is one"
Is a fallacy and reality cannot properly be compared to something as simple as a coin. So because Duality is two opposites that are completely opposite from each other intern are creating a contrast in order for us to experience life
Then this means that it is NOT the same coin because that implies non-duality and duality cannot exist Within non-duality . So simply put we are in duality and experience because of duality and all that we are and will e er be able to comprehend is within duality.

Hello MAYA EL

Nondualism (with a small ’n’) simply means not-two or not multiple. This sense/understanding points to the fact that even now as you read this all there is is a ‘singular principle’ at work. All the differentiation, variation and individuation is simply a play (or appearance) of that. The fact is, there is never any duality/separation to begin with - only Reality - without a second. To deeply see/know this involves a shift in perception - a kind of 'penny dropping' felt-sense-recognition.

But there are ways in which a taste of this can arise. We tend think of ourselves as nouns in a world of other nouns and thus have sense of separation and fragmentation. But if you can get a sense of the verb that Life is... Life simply happening - as it is - presently, then this sense of contraction starts to ease. Just close your eyes and as thought slows down you might get a sense of the happening of the moment. Experience the momentum of what’s going on… in and around… and see/sense that it clearly does not stop where the body apparently ends. There is nothing that is on the outside of - or other than - this unfolding of the moment.

Now, when this sensibility arises there is the same differentiation of forms as before - nothing has changed on (let’s say) the horizontal axis. But at the same time (on the vertical axis) there can be the felt-sense that ALL is the articulation or be-ing of a ‘singular event’ - the One Life behind things. This is what is referred to as oneness (or no-separation.) In a sense it’s very ordinary. Nothing really changes, the universe doesn’t congeal into an undifferentiated blob and awareness certainly doesn’t need to be in a rarefied state devoid of everyday forms and so on.

Complete cessation of forms can happen in deep states such as nirvikalpa samadhi - but this is not the goal of realisation since this is a temporary condition which will arise and pass - meanwhile the ‘one life’ intrinsic to ALL states is radiantly present as the articulation of this very moment.

I fully understand the perspective you hold about non-duality vs duality and I have in fact experienced this as well as I am no stranger to metaphysical experiences of many different kinds .
However when you break it down and try to observe the topic without self opinion and expectations and just look as it what you will see is that non-duality is a figment of the imagination/ assumption that one make in there mind in order to understand the situation and that is it nothing more nothing less. It is an assumption that this is all 1 coin because if it is all 1 coin then we can get a grasp of it mentality and feel as if we in some kind of way understand it and this is how the human mind works.
But the fact is that we are in duality and only are capable of experiencing that which is within duality as well.

and to even contemplate what true non-duality is like is impossible because you would be using the mental tools that only work in duality and are incompatible of working on anything outside of duality so then if one experiences so called non-duality it is an illusion of the Mind and it's still part of duality.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

I fully understand the perspective you hold about non-duality vs duality and I have in fact experienced this as well as I am no stranger to metaphysical experiences of many different kinds .
However when you break it down and try to observe the topic without self opinion and expectations and just look as it what you will see is that non-duality is a figment of the imagination/ assumption that one make in there mind in order to understand the situation and that is it nothing more nothing less. It is an assumption that this is all 1 coin because if it is all 1 coin then we can get a grasp of it mentality and feel as if we in some kind of way understand it and this is how the human mind works.
But the fact is that we are in duality and only are capable of experiencing that which is within duality as well.

and to even contemplate what true non-duality is like is impossible because you would be using the mental tools that only work in duality and are incompatible of working on anything outside of duality so then if one experiences so called non-duality it is an illusion of the Mind and it's still part of duality.

Who was this response of yours to? Non-duality is the eternal deathless present moment-the right here and right now. You are speaking mostly of dualism. I agree with you to a point. The Dualist ego separates non-duality. Separating non-duality is illogical. How can you separate non-duality from itself when non-duality is non-duality/only one/everything? I had a lengthy conversation with justasimpleguy about this in another thread. I do not know what you mean by mental tools, but the only tool you need is to be aware of and be aware in the non-duality eternal deathless present moment-the right here and right now. This means you stay in the present moment (no matter what)-you do not think about your past experiences that gave you pain and pleasure or the good and bad experiences you had, knowledge and beliefs that are based on duality etc etc, you do not think dually-have thoughts of this or that is good/bad or positive/negative and you do not think/daydream about being someplace that gives you mental pleasure, and/or mental comfort in the present moment, etc etc and you do not think/daydream about the future that gives you mental comfort or pleasure. Doing any/all of the above takes your awareness away from the present moment that is eternal, deathless and non-duality. A person's ego creates duality mentally. Duality thus conditional love (romantic love is a conditional love) is the ego's animalistic/instinctual nature.

What I am saying is that you can't perceive/experience /view/ touch/smell/taste /hear/Tech/ non-duality because your faculties that you have at your disposal rather they be physical or mental are calibrated to measure the differentiation between two opposite poles in order to derive a conclusion for your mind to experience and you have no ability whatsoever and no faculty whatsoever at your disposal to experience and especially comprehend non-duality however your imagination can create the illusion of this concept non-duality and it might even seem logical to some people that two opposites are the same coin in the bigger picture but that doesn't mean the bigger picture is non-dualistic is all it means is that's what made sense in your head was to simplify it into one being when that is not the case

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

What I am saying is that you can't perceive/experience /view/ touch/smell/taste /hear/Tech/ non-duality because your faculties that you have at your disposal rather they be physical or mental are calibrated to measure the differentiation between two opposite poles in order to derive a conclusion for your mind to experience and you have no ability whatsoever and no faculty whatsoever at your disposal to experience and especially comprehend non-duality however your imagination can create the illusion of this concept non-duality and it might even seem logical to some people that two opposites are the same coin in the bigger picture but that doesn't mean the bigger picture is non-dualistic is all it means is that's what made sense in your head was to simplify it into one being when that is not the case

That is only true to you because you have the limiting belief that you can't see or perceive non-duality. Just because you are closed off to non-duality does not mean everyone else is closed off to duality too.

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

I fully understand the perspective you hold about non-duality vs duality and I have in fact experienced this as well as I am no stranger to metaphysical experiences of many different kinds .
However when you break it down and try to observe the topic without self opinion and expectations and just look as it what you will see is that non-duality is a figment of the imagination/ assumption that one make in there mind in order to understand the situation and that is it nothing more nothing less. It is an assumption that this is all 1 coin because if it is all 1 coin then we can get a grasp of it mentality and feel as if we in some kind of way understand it and this is how the human mind works.
But the fact is that we are in duality and only are capable of experiencing that which is within duality as well.

and to even contemplate what true non-duality is like is impossible because you would be using the mental tools that only work in duality and are incompatible of working on anything outside of duality so then if one experiences so called non-duality it is an illusion of the Mind and it's still part of duality.

Thanks MAYA EL. But you seem to be missing the point of my post. The relative dualities/differences of everyday experience are not left behind in a realisation of nonduality. As I say earlier in the thread, “no credible speaker on nonduality has ever suggested that ‘nondual perception’ entails the absence of the relative dualities of everyday experience; up and down, left and right, in and out, hot and cold and so on… in the realisation that reality is without a second it’s seen that whatever state/condition is arising - that is it.”

It’s actually duality, in the sense of actual separation (not relative duality/differentiation) which is impossible - it’s a delusion upheld in the mind based on memories of the past and future imaginings. Right now in this present actuality reality is whole.

Originally Posted by Moondance

Thanks MAYA EL. But you seem to be missing the point of my post. The relative dualities/differences of everyday experience are not left behind in a realisation of nonduality. As I say earlier in the thread, “no credible speaker on nonduality has ever suggested that ‘nondual perception’ entails the absence of the relative dualities of everyday experience; up and down, left and right, in and out, hot and cold and so on… in the realisation that reality is without a second it’s seen that whatever state/condition is arising - that is it.”

It’s actually duality, in the sense of actual separation (not relative duality/differentiation) which is impossible - it’s a delusion upheld in the mind based on memories of the past and future imaginings. Right now in this present actuality reality is whole.

I understand what you are saying however my point being that it is an assumption and not a fact.
In a since its almost like an attempt at quantification for Simplicity by say/ believing all is 1 and to the majority it's a concept that make sense but it is still an assumption

Originally Posted by MikeS80

That is only true to you because you have the limiting belief that you can't see or perceive non-duality. Just because you are closed off to non-duality does not mean everyone else is closed off to duality too.

That is a pathetic replying. We are not children either give an intelligent response or don't respond at all please

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by MAYA EL

That is a pathetic replying. We are not children either give an intelligent response or don't respond at all please

What was pathetic about my response? Your beliefs shapes your subjective reality via the law of attraction-like attracts like. You might as well say that consciousness/awareness is an illusion, even though consciousness/awareness is behind your eyes. Consciousness is non-duality, neutrality and equality. You are thinking in terms of the duality your ego created. The ego, the I, the self etc is able to be balanced by and be one with consciousness/non-duality.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

What was pathetic about my response? Your beliefs shapes your subjective reality via the law of attraction-like attracts like. You might as well say that consciousness/awareness is an illusion, even though consciousness/awareness is behind your eyes. Consciousness is non-duality, neutrality and equality. You are thinking in terms of the duality your ego created. The ego, the I, the self etc is able to be balanced by and be one with consciousness/non-duality.

It was pathetic in the sense that your reply was much like a 12 year old girl stomping her foot and not wanting to walk any further because she didn't get the toy at the store she wanted in other words there is very little intelligence behind it and if the conversation we're to continue down that path eventually we would end up sticking our tongues out at each other and saying "you're stupid know you're stupid"

It's easy to take anything that anybody says and turn it around and say "well that's just your opinion" well obviously it's my opinion but I'm not here to just take what anybody says and say it's your opinion you're wrong I'm right nana nana boo boo because I'm actually here for philosophical discussions that are actually productive Princeton's even this reply is not very productive. But it's clear that you cannot comprehend what I'm trying to explain to you so I will leave it at that there's no point in arguing have a wonderful day.