How spiritual are we really?

[lemex]

As spiritual as we can be.

[mihael_11]

Spiritual question. What is the spirit of this thread? :)

[running]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Running,

agreed....but pointing out that you acknowledge that there is a point in time prior to the permeation of love. I suppose my message to those not permeated with love....certainly not to those on the forum who have risen to the level of living and practicing unconditional love.

in that experience everything is easier due to the peace and causeless joy. But it is independent of whats going on. For some it could be a practice of being amiable. For others the practice to get there may be yoga, pranyama, meditation, or just a simple happening.

How one lives afterwards is how one lives afterwards. it can be for many living very ordinary.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Molearner

Baile,

Shivatar seems to have a point. Especially when you make a point of your spirituality being dependent on the way you "interact with life". 'Life' seems to imply others(we). Perhaps spirituality can only be about 'me' but it is necessarily dependent on the existence of others(we) with whom we can interact? We see this differently. I believe in the necessity of seeing others(with awareness) to greatly aid me in seeing myself(becoming spiritual). I cannot dismiss others as playing no role in spirituality.

That's what I was getting at. Where we are in relation to others is important. How we treat others is a reflection of who we are as a whole, sub-conscious, shadow, repressed memories, all of it.

How we know ourself in relation to others is as important for gauging spiritual progress as having a healthy and grounded self-view.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Baile

shivatar, I'll answer that, and whether I continue with this conversation beyond that will be up to you. Because if you reply again with another broad assumption and chortling lol-critique, I'll take that as your disinterest in an actual, honest dialogue.

MY spirituality is always about me. How could it be anything else but that? How for example could I make my spirituality about you? You have nothing to do with my individual spiritual path. Likewise I can't make my spirituality about someone in the Buddhist or Christian forum, because I'm not Buddhist or Christian.

I said: When I interact with life in a joyful, conscious, thoughtful way, I'm spiritual. I did not say: A person is only spiritual if they interact with life in a joyful, conscious, thoughtful way. I always try to consciously and intentionally and specifically word my descriptions in a way that doesn't infringe on any one else's free choice. Because I don't know what spirituality is for THEM. I can only know what it is for ME.

And so I say, in response to the thread title question, spirituality is always about me, not we.

I didn't mean to imply that self attention is bad, I was trying to say that we should acknowledge that we live within an ecosystem of other people and at some point stop seeking self-improvement and improve what we all share. earth. life. consciousness. Things like that.

There are people in the world who don't have the economic security to wonder about self-improvement or making their life easier. Getting by consumes all their time and energy. By taking the spotlight off our self and our development we can not only continue to grow as a person we can help others.

If clear consciousness was a basic human right we would lend our resources to people in such a situation. If we only care about our own existence and experience then we won't think or try to do such a deed.

--

Also it's possible you meant what me and mole were talking about but your wording was different. if you mean that your spirituality is about self-improvement, and by improving yourself you improve all the relationships you engage in, then that is a good thing and what we were getting at. If we are only seeking good feelings so we can enjoy solitude then our growth will be stunted. I think Mole and I just wanted to say don't just worry about yourself, worry about others and how you relate to others. Don't seek spirituality just for good feelings for yourself, share, seek to find something worth sharing.

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by Molearner

These are the spiritual forums. Do we ask ourselves how spiritual we really are? Do we think we are spiritual because we are faithful meditators....that we understand spiritual precepts...that we have had mystic experiences? Can we test ourselves to determine our level of spirituality?

I would say that the more mindful, loving, compassionate,value-based and non-reactive we are , the more we can be said to be spiritual.

The test of a person's spirituality can be that of his non-reactivity, inability to hate back the tormentor, and patience with those who harm him or her. The said person can take steps to protect herself but that would be complemented with compassion for her tormentor.

When Buddha while walking on the road was met upon by some brahmins philosophically opposed to him and who criticized him and slandered him foully , Buddha just smiled to their accusations and walked on mindfully.

Similarly Jesus forgave his tormentors on the cross and also prayed to God to forgive them as well.

This utter non-reactivity along with compassion for the tormentors can be seen as a sign of spirituality.

Such non-reactivity stems from Awareness or deep love.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Molearner

These are the spiritual forums. Do we ask ourselves how spiritual we really are? Do we think we are spiritual because we are faithful meditators....that we understand spiritual precepts...that we have had mystic experiences? Can we test ourselves to determine our level of spirituality?

I am suggesting that the litmus test is our ability to love one another. Nothing, IMO, is a higher or more valid test of our spirituality. Basically this means walking into any situation that is alien to us with the determination and realization that it is our duty, our obligation, our calling to extend love to those that we encounter. This means giving up the natural impulse to judge others to validate our preconceptions of them, and if they pass our judgment that they then have proven themselves worthy of our love. This is nothing more than ego affirmation and has nothing to do with love. If our first impulse is to judge then it is fear for our security and acceptance that is the driving emotion.

Some people might be afraid, I guess its best to honour how you feel. Some people might be curious, if they are interested and want to learn. Judgment comes when it feels this way too. As for spirituality, life is life, some choose a path that is called spirituality. As humans we encounter and move through much when open and reflecting, building a deeper awareness. Some are, some just get on with life.

I can think of a lot of good opportunities for testing ourselves.....but will only list a couple. Visit a fundamental church that you abhor......sit at a table with those that you are totally politically opposed to. Can you bring love? That can be your test. We tend to gravitate to intricate standards for genuine spirituality at the expense of neglecting the most basic and fundamental standards.

Being open to life as it meets you is a wonderful way to be. Fear and judgement opened me to know myself deeper. Being open I don't gravitate, more I live my life and let life show me, open up what I feel in myself to let go and deepen into a more open way of being myself. Most people who are spiritual often end up having reality checks to get more real too. Then of course what I learned was that we are part of life, I can deepen in myself and lead as I become. We are all unique, we come with a unique path and process, we also move where we need and can open to life where we are.

We can challenge and test ourselves of course.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by shivatar

Also it's possible you meant what me and mole were talking about but your wording was different. if you mean that your spirituality is about self-improvement, and by improving yourself you improve all the relationships you engage in, then that is a good thing and what we were getting at.

Molearner and I have had this dialogue before. His is a western Christian path, focused on outward-directed beliefs, expressions and actions. Belief in a God that exists outside of one's Self; laws and commandments having to do with love God, love thy neighbor, honor thy mother and father, etc. This is why Molearner asks if "we" are spiritual. He's really just asking a rhetorical question. He's putting forward the notion that one's activities in the world are only spiritually meaningful when undertaken within this we-oriented western religious framework. I disagreed before, and disagree again.

Compare that to the Eastern meditative path of Buddhism. Buddhism is an inward, Self-directed path. No belief in a personal god; no focus on god. The focus rather is on the individual Self, the I. Buddhism's noble truths -- it's laws and commandments -- are all directed inward and pertain to the individual's self-development and self-understanding: right speech, right action, right thought, moral virtue, etc. My own path is similar; the entire focus of my spiritual learning has everything to do with evolving my moral self-development.

I said, I interact with life in a joyful, conscious, thoughtful way. I am not a Buddhist monk living alone on a mountain. And I do interact with people. And when I do, I do so in the most joyful, conscious, thoughtful way I can. But I do not need to interact with others in order to be spiritual. I could go live alone on a mountain and have a very spiritual relationship with life. And I could do that and still say, "This is how spiritual I really am."

[Baile]

Originally Posted by shivatar

First you challenge us.

Then suggest that the solution to your challenge is to adopt your beliefs?

Okay, I see you caught this as well. It's the irony aspect of a lot of the sharing that goes on in this forum, and in all human interaction. Someone will post with the honest intention of sharing some spiritual-minded idea (belief). And in the process of doing so, will very often invalidate, in the most nonspiritual of ways, any ideas that run counter to whatever it is the individual believes and is sharing.

That is why I say: Truth is not in the idea one is contemplating. Truth is in the one who is contemplating the idea.

When I share, the only important and relevant aspect of the exercise has to do with listening, examining and contemplating upon that which I and the other person shares. But it seems most peoples' motivation for posting is to try to convince others of this or that truth, belief, or way of thinking. Imposing their spirituality on others. And here's the double-irony. The way I see it, I'm actually the one "doing" what is being promoted here as spiritual activity. I'm not imposing my beliefs. I'm being thoughtful towards this "ecosystem of other people" and taking them into consideration, by leaving them free to define their spirituality in the way that works for them.