144,000

[Ezdra]

Let talk of the 144,000 in the Revelation, and in the general spirituality. Are we in the time when those chosen souls are present on earth?

Hello friends! That is my first post here. I see this is a highly spiritual forum. I am searching for a such for sometime. Although being member in some forums for the last years...

I have a lot to say about the topic just started (haven't seen similar that's why I started it, hope in the right category). It amounts to a new theory, based on personal feelings, inspirations, and even encounters with the supernatural. I will be more detailed as the time goes by.

If we have the time, after all predictions of doom dates every month. I believe we will have a short or long time granted before any doom. Being visited by spirits but also visited by beings in flesh and blood, from Space. Whether they will come for 3 months to "save us" or for 30 years "to teach us", I don't know.

Some Bible scholars online have spoken of two sets of 144,000 (Rev 7 and Rev 14). One set from "heaven" and other from earth. Well that is the same what I get thru my own spiritual encounter. We will have companions, both from the stars and from earthy incarnated souls.

Well that may be enough for a first post. And I am waiting to make those 25 posts in 15 days :)

[Busby]

I know a couple of people who seem to belong to these 144,000. They secured their placings last century by regularly attending meetings and praising Jehova. In the meantime they have passed on - but are so to speak - waiting in the wings, unsure of course if they'll not be beaten at the post. As we others have now waited 2016 years for Armageddon (when will it at last come? Lots of people are getting impatient) this works out at about 70 saved per year on average. As there are about 170 countries on the planet there will be real competition for these top places. The head count therefore if Armageddon comes this year will be about 0.4 persons per country. Claim your place early and make sure you get top marks.

Otherwise you may well be dooooooomed.

[Baile]

The essential and relevant understanding: the human being latches onto knowledge in their 20's, and externalizes it (aliens and Armageddon theories for example) because the early years are our explosive intellectual "thinking" years. By the time we've reached our 40's and 50's - the "experiential" years - the reality of life has become clear. We have lived the real thing and understand it is not some end-of-world video game. Life is seen as a wonderful journey having to do with the exploration of the soul, the self, and learning to become an honest and loving person. That's when the true teachings of Jesus begin to resonate.

Yugas are age cycles. A Yuga arc is 12,000 years. Once through all the astrological signs (Pisces age, Aquarius age) would be 144,000 years. Couple that with the knowledge the Bible is an allegorical story book. And now there's a place to start reading if you're interested.

[knightofalbion]

Its mystical numerology. 1+4+4 = 9 The number of humanity. The secret of the piece is that all humanity will eventually be 'saved', return to Source.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Its mystical numerology. 1+4+4 = 9 The number of humanity. The secret of the piece is that all humanity will eventually be 'saved', return to Source.

Another valuable insight into the real meaning.

[SpiritualMe]

Well Met

Thi scould be interesting. Of curse,the first thing to realise - this 144000 - the first set,that is - are ALL JEWS - SPECIFICALLY taken from jewish tribes and ONLY jewish tribes. Only later,does it start to talk about "the rest of the world". At this point though,when this first 144000 are mentioned in Rev 7,it is purely jewish.

The second mention - to my mind is far more interesting - it says basically there are ANOTHER 144000 who come from ALL OVER THE EARTH - and look closely here - these new ones who stand with Christ - indeed,SING A NEW SONG THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN UNDERSTAND !!!

THIS group - stand with CHRIST and it says He redeems them PERSONALLY and they are His "first fruits" - they follow HIM and Him alone,faithfully - and because of this they learn this "new song" FROM HIM during their lives on Earth.

Again there is a clear distinction being made by HIM - HIS teaching brings something NEW that none of these others who stand before this "throne" can understand and again this is emphasised here clearly - and look - it says just as clearly that ALL those STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE ALREADY - the elders and "living creatures" and the god itself - DO NOT KNOW THIS NEW SONG FROM CHRIST !!

Everybody who worships at THAT throne it says - is IGNORANT of this "new song from Christ" that they must now use as worship. Again - it is clearly telling us - there is a "truth of this god" - and alongside,there is truth of Christ - and despite what the religion insists,these two truths are NOT the same at all - wrong "god" entirely - again,we see two sets of outcomes - one ends with Jewish people before this "throne" worshipping that god there and the god then destroys the rest who refuse to bow down - and the other ends with a select group who truly UNDERSTAND Christ and who have learned a NEW song,new TRUTH from Him entirely.

Dont take it for granted that Christ is for this religion or this god - He is NOT - and at every opportunity He will reveal this truth clearly and warn us AWAY from that god completely - even here it IS plain to see - He saves those who understand Him amd learn "His new song",and the rest are left to deal with this "god on the throne" and the "judgements" it passes over them. This gospel of Revelation - is after all - a WARNING - given directly by Christ. He is telling of the fate of mankind - two fates - one at the hands of this god - or one at the hands of Him,who delivers a "new truth",new song for His chosen to sing - ONLY THEY UNDERSTAND and the god and those that bow before it are ignorant,cannot learn this truth it says.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by SpiritualMe

this 144000 - the first set,that is - are ALL JEWS - SPECIFICALLY taken from jewish tribes and ONLY jewish tribes.

I have come across that interpretation as well, makes much sense.

Originally Posted by SpiritualMe

ANOTHER 144000 who come from ALL OVER THE EARTH - and look closely here - these new ones who stand with Christ - indeed,SING A NEW SONG THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN UNDERSTAND !!!

Interesting and insightful. But if you're suggesting there are in fact only 144,000 "saved souls" in the world who understand Christ's message, that's way too materialistic an interpretation for me. It's just one more variation of materialistic religious understandings at that point, the exact same thing that gives rise to all these unhealthy apocalypse and rapture stories.

A less materialistic and more spiritual interpretation would be the "144,000 souls in Christ" is a metaphor for the physical time in Age-speak that it will take for all humanity to come to Christ wisdom. It is "the number of humanity," representing the span of time of this plane of material existence, the time that will be required before our human self-realization Age has concluded.

[SpiritualMe]

Well Met

Baile' Ah,they are not the ONLY ones who understand,but they are the FIRST ones - these understand DIRECTLY,and have learned His truth DURING their own lifetimes. It says of them,they remained faithful always,did not "defile themselves" in life and remained virgin. In other words then, His truth is the only truth they ever had. We know that it means they came to ralise this DURING their own life, because it says they all stand on "Mount Zion" - ON THE EARTH - a purely mortal awareness. Ergo,throughout their lives,they always knew,trusted,followed Christ and only Him,and came to Him THROUGH that DIRECT experience of life itself. (many of us here share this same journey of course - found Christ first,alone,directly,without teaching from another) - of course,when we look closely here,we have to admit - this group described - are surely GNOSTIC seekers - they are describes as ALWAYS following Christ, VIRGIN of any other Source, and so UN DEFILED by any other truth except that revealed directly. Surely,it is describing the Gnostic path,and says these first ones found Christ in this manner.

These others though who also get "saved" - a vast multitude it says - come to Christ,but only AFTER this judgement has began - they didnt CHOOSE Him for themselves or seek Him out as the first ones had - but rather,have turned to Him now,ONLY BECAUSE of the things happening on the Earth.

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Now this is a very interesting little twist. John has JUST told us of this first 144000 who ALL come from the jewish tribes,12000 from each. The command is to hold off destroying the Earth,until these first ones are "sealed with a mark". But look - BEFORE THAT EVEN HAPPENS - before the throne,appear a "vast multitude beyond number from all over the Earth" - and look closely again - the Angels DONT KNOW WHO THEY ARE !!!

See what it says ? A THRONE with this "god" - surrounded by 24 lesser thrones on which are seated the ELDERS of this god. And there are four "living creatures" that seem to be a cross of every type of animal imaginable. Surrounding this top tier are all the ranks of angels - and now,appearing from nowhere in their midst,are this vast multitude of white robed people. See what John says :

Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?”

What this ? This vast multitude appear in heaven,and the Elders themselves are CLUE LESS as to who they are !! John replies to this Elder :

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Ah - so this vast multitude - turns out they too are "saved" by Christ,and these come form every nation faith and creed - held THOSE truths first,and turned to Christ later "in tribulation" - not gnostic then as the first group is described - and these vast multitude beyond nunber it says,yet the Elders there in this heaven with this "god",have no idea who or what they are,and are perplexed it seems as to how they arrive here at this time. The Elder has to be reminded BY John,and then and only then does the Elder begin to realise their significance.

we see again - quite clearly - this god and its heirachy - dont know Christ or HIS truth - seems this is as much a "revelation" for them,as it is for mankind. Go figure..

[Baile]

Originally Posted by SpiritualMe

Ah,they are not the ONLY ones who understand,but they are the FIRST ones - these understand DIRECTLY,and have learned His truth DURING their own lifetimes.

These others though who also get "saved" - a vast multitude it says - come to Christ,but only AFTER this judgement has began - they didnt CHOOSE Him for themselves or seek Him out as the first ones had - but rather,have turned to Him now,ONLY BECAUSE of the things happening on the Earth.

Okay. As ever, I see where you're coming from and agree with about half it. Thing with me though is I don't need to agree and can still have an adult dialogue about it.

[Ezdra]

Originally Posted by SpiritualMe

Well Met

The second mention - to my mind is far more interesting - it says basically there are ANOTHER 144000 who come from ALL OVER THE EARTH - and look closely here - these new ones who stand with Christ - indeed,SING A NEW SONG THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN UNDERSTAND !!!

THIS group - stand with CHRIST and it says He redeems them PERSONALLY and they are His "first fruits" - they follow HIM and Him alone,faithfully - and because of this they learn this "new song" FROM HIM during their lives on Earth.

Yes that is how I see the things as well.

Also, there might be off-planet humans, called in the Bible - angels. The topic is too large of course. Each of these 144,000 could have one or more special angelic beings around him (not to be messed with the personal angels of every human).

Although main churches explain manchild as sought to be spiritual rebirth of Jesus, is ee it as a concrete historical person yet to come. We know of Enoch, Elijah, and Melchisedek (from Dead Sea Scrolls) that they are about to come before Jesus. If so, it is unreasonable to call everyone good person who is to come before Jesus with the name "antichrist". In fact the Christian history doesn't know anything other than wars and inequality. If someone tried to bring peace and justice, he was remembered that the kingdom of God is not of this world. That culminates in the Augustine theory that the Millenium after the Second Coming should be taken out and put in the middle of Church's history. That was copied and pasted all over theology, both in the West and in the East, until the time of Reformation. Now more people realize, the Revelation cannot be screwed in that way, if we are to believe in the book at all. Anyway, the Millenium is only after the Second Coming of Jesus.

How about before that? Where is the Kingdom of God spoken of by Jesus in the Gospels? Isn't it to come visible in the historic age, or is the Gospel words just empty promises for after life and obscure Second Coming in the eternal future? I don't think so. I believe such period of peace and well being will be granted in history before the Second Coming and before the Antichrist as well.

If we go thru multiple Medieval prophecies of various people, they all tak of a holy king to rule for 57 some years all Europe, right before the coming of antichrist. Paradoxically, the muslims have their prophecies who envision just the same, only with opposite meaning :) I do not take those medieval prophecies as granted. Not even Fatima, so much speculated in the last decade.

But if we compare to the timeline of Revelation, there is only one place of possible extension to allow such Era of Peace to exist on the timeline of God's plan. It is during the War in Heaven, that starts with the rapture of the manchild, and continues with 2/3 vs 1/3 stars ...practically in the Universe. The people at the time of Revelation's writing knew of 6,000 stars visible with naked eye. Now we know of trillions ++ Apparently such a mega war will take quite long, even in case time flows on different rate in Andromeda and here. It is not a past event since no one saw it to confirm it happened. Prophecy cannot be only symbolical, or it loses its very nature to predict events that everyone can see, verify, and accept the prophecy as true coming from God. The other is saga telling no better than those of the Vikings and their god Thor (recently starring in Avengers).

Well, I made some graphics, will try again to upload file. If not, you will have to wait my forum probation 15 days ...No, I can't. Well, it may wait.

As of the exact role of 144,000 on Mt Zion, it seems to be a bit early, but it may happen quite soon and unexpected. Is it possible, every age to have its 144000 as it is said, every age has its antichrist as well? I am not preterist though.

It is true that we all get older, but it is also true God calculated it in His equation. There is such thing as spiritual youth as well. I know people on 15 who look like burdened 65 years old, and vice versus.