A Case Against Hell - Biblical and Otherwise

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by neil

Hello everyone.

Have you ever seen a spiritual being..(a human being that has transitioned to spiritual life after earth)..that has been practicing evil on the earth plane, by connecting to humans & influencing their thoughts & muscular actions/movement's, to control the human, in order to experience life on earth again, most people have not seen any of these beings.
But I have, & it is not a pretty site, these ex-humans are very distorted in mind, shape & colour, limbs that have withered & distorted in shape & length, torsos that are distorted, twisted in any direction, heads that do not have much left of their ears, eyes or nose, colours that are so dark looking...if you could imagine the most disgusting muddy murky greens, blues, browns & these colours all mixed in amongst each other making such an awful appearance of these beings.

They gravitate towards a very dark place, like all other dark beings, through the "LAW OF ATTRACTION", & it is an emensely large & dark place of differnt intensities.
Where your mind brings forth all of your wrong & unloving thoughts & actions, which creates such a personal hell for the spiritual individual who now finds his or her self in such a location.
But this hell is not a hell of fire & brimstone, but is a very cold & baron place, as these spiritual beings that live there have very little light, love & warmth within them, & their location is a reflection of their souls...as is the highest locations of creator's universe a "REFLECTION OF THE SOULS OF THE SPIRITUAL BEINGS" that live in the most highest spiritual realms...yes their realms are of such an emensely warm, colorful & loving intensity due to the conditions of the souls that reside there

All the NDE research refutes everything you have to say here. I have yet to see any studies that affirm anything you have to say...therefore I refuse to believe any of it... SMILES

I ASK YOU WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO LIVE, THEY WILL HAVE TO LIVE SOME WHERE, & THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE WILL TAKE CARE OF THAT FOR THEM...AND THEY WILL MOST DEFINITELY LIVE IN A LOCATION THAT BEST SUITES THEIR SOUL CONDITION WITHIN THE ""SPIRITUAL HELLS""....
"""BELIEVE IT OR NOT""".
Untill they find it within themselves to have an understanding of what they have been apart of in their unlovingness, & feel remorse which will bring a very small amount of love & light to their souls.
Or they could ask for "CREARORS" divine essence..("HOLLY SPIRIT".."CHRIST ENERGY") to flow into their souls to be their "SAVIOR"...WHICH WILL MOST DEFINATELY BRING WARMTH, LOVE & LIGHT INTO THEIR SOULS...which will also be reflected within their spiritual body. Which will also move them into a brighter locations.

SO NOT A HELL OF FIRE & BRIMSTONE...BUT A LOCATION WITHIN THE UNIVERSE THAT BEST SUITES A DARKS SPIRITS DARK SOUL CONDITION, A LOCATION OF VARYING CONDITIONS OF COLDNESS, DARKNESS CREATED BY VARYING CONDITIONS OF SOUL CONDITIONS...
....& NOT INFLICTED UPON ANY SPIRIT BY CREATOR...BUT INFLICTED ON ONES SELF BY ONES SOUL INTERACTING WITH THE UNIVERSES UNCHANGING SELF CORRECTING LAWS...


AND ONCE AGAIN ""BIG SMILES"" TO EVERYONE FROM ME !!!!!.

Ps please feel free to quiz me....SMILES.

That is soooo 3D of you to think there has to be a specific "location" in the universe where these souls gravitate to! The universe is multidimensional in nature which negates the need for a "location" to congregate. You are using your limited 3D knowledge and experience to explain multidimensionality which fails in every aspect. Its like a 14th century human being trying to explain computers and the internet. We are not there yet. Everyone who creates hell within experiences the hell within as that is where the hell is at. Thats all that needs to be said given our limited knowledge at this point in our evolution. Consider yourself quizzed... SMILES

[Amilius777]

Yeah but I have read NDEs where the person experience a "hell realm", a dimension that is hellish. Depending on the person's energy, actions, and works in physical life, they reap what they get on the Spiritual plane.

Basically heaven, purgatory, and hell are more like states of consciousness on the Other Side than actual places.

Heaven is a state and realm where everyone is happy, fulfilled, and rejoined with loves ones and God

Purgatory is a state where some are not satisfied, sometime Earthbound, "ghosts", reaping karma before they can enter a more heavenly state.

Hell is a state where those who have committed the worst evils, degraded themselves and condemned themselves from the Light. Whatever it may be, their hell is different depending on their reality just as those have a different "heaven" based on their experience.

"In my Father's house there are many mansions".

Meaning you could be in "Heaven" with your mother but your mother may be at a higher level of evolution where her Heavenly experience is even greater than your own. That is why reincarnation is the way towards greater evolution.

Christ was trying to save people from whatever "hell" they could create for others on Earth or for themselves on the Other Side. His Way can create a safe and easy passage to heaven and greater depths towards Divine Union.

[Frederick33]

Originally Posted by yumi14

I would love it if you started a thread on the tree of knowledge and share your perspective of it

ok thanks :-) of course it has to do with the reality of duality as only reality ,its easy to say this is cos there is separation from the consciousness that is collective and all around , but what is the separation. well its god sending them out of paradise ah ok but what is that ? its because they ate from the tree of knowledge
:-) yes that's not an explanation ....that's already written there :-) so in other words not metaphorical it should be

perhaps ask 1st can anyone tell me in practical terms what separation is ? does any one know ?

[Frederick33]

Originally Posted by SeaZen

Thanks... why not tell us about it a bit? Asides are OK as they may add to the discussion and spur new knowings. If they get too far off topic and spur a discussion in and of itself, you can start a new thread at that point.

thanks yes

it would be about why are people not in paradise

or also what is paradise

I have touched upon it at times

but words are language

does language convey its realities ?

is there any value in reading text about it ?

if that value is there it would be good

actually love is the messenger that will take you there :-)

but also insight :-) so

but I will write it as new topic

love and light to all here :-)

[Morpheus]

Well, the big question here, in the Christian Forum, is why focus on hell, when there is such wonderful news about how to avoid it? The liberal and free gift of God for us? Namely, "Salvation".

The Lord is referred to in the Old Testament as both "Savior", and "Redeemer"
No doubt, the disaffected would like to change the meaning of those words. However? "Saved means Rescued, as by another, and Salvation itself infers to be saved from something.

Redemption? To be redeemed back from something...

Jesus, in the Bible, tells the story of "Lazerus, and the Rich man". He had never used personal names in any of His other parables.

Lazerus was a poor man who the rich guy paid no mind to. The rich guy ate well, "sumptuously", and lived luxuriously.

He stated that when Lazerus died, he went to the bosom of his distant descendant, Abraham, founder of the Jewish nation.
Interesting no?
With regard to what we read in the many NDE accounts today?

The Rich guy however found himself on the other side of a wide gulf which seperated him from both Abraham, and Lazerus, Who desired something for his thirst, still being found with carnal desire... having to do with the heat and flames all around him.
THIS is where the perception of hell comes from, today.

Even though elsewhere, there is no indication of a fiery hell, but rather darkness, and separation...
In fact, it states also in The Book of Revelation, that both death and hell will be thrown into a, "Lake of Fire".

Matthew 23:15
"... Pharisees, hypocrites, for you scour sea and land in order to win one convert--and when he is gained, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as yourselves."
You disimiss the notion of hell because He has used the fiery refuse pit as an illustration to you?

If there is nothing to be saved from, then also there is no need for repentance, at all.
"It's all good". Salvation? Not needed...
"Thanks anyway Jesus, but, you're not a Savior, because it is not needed".

All of this is contrary to Biblical instruction and teaching as a whole.
Again, Jesus Himself spoke about how the road to LIFE is narrow and straight, and few being found upon it...
and, the how road to Destruction is broad, and wide....

"For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." - Mathew 7:13

(This is quite different than someone having narrow, myopic mindset and view, dismissing Truth, and ignoring it.)

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Matthew-7-14/

In the Old Testament, salvation is wrought by the substitutional, and atoning lamb. The rituals ordained by God from early on, and for the situation of conscience.

The long prophesied Savior and Messiah, prophesied in many places through the ages of the writings, was born to die for the sins of the whole world.
In "atonement". ~ Again, if it is all good, there is no need.

Also, to rise again, and to be an ever living mediator before God, on behalf of a fallen mankind. Himself being perfect, and taking our place in judgement.
Only God is perfect.

Which, as one observes through the centuries of history, and in the world today, ought to be apparent enough to anyone with an objective mind, and perception.
That there is a need for salvation, and to be saved from something, involving the infernal.
Which victory and accomplishment He has attained, involving also the denial of Ego.
God is no respector of persons, as it is written, and we are all in the same boat, "here".

Being found in this temporary, transient, organic situation. in "Illusory" time and space.
---------------------------------------

"1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. 2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy...

13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse,
deceiving, and being deceived."

2 Timothy 3

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Amilius777

Yeah but I have read NDEs where the person experience a "hell realm", a dimension that is hellish. Depending on the person's energy, actions, and works in physical life, they reap what they get on the Spiritual plane.

Basically heaven, purgatory, and hell are more like states of consciousness on the Other Side than actual places.

Heaven is a state and realm where everyone is happy, fulfilled, and rejoined with loves ones and God

Purgatory is a state where some are not satisfied, sometime Earthbound, "ghosts", reaping karma before they can enter a more heavenly state.

Hell is a state where those who have committed the worst evils, degraded themselves and condemned themselves from the Light. Whatever it may be, their hell is different depending on their reality just as those have a different "heaven" based on their experience.

"In my Father's house there are many mansions".

Meaning you could be in "Heaven" with your mother but your mother may be at a higher level of evolution where her Heavenly experience is even greater than your own. That is why reincarnation is the way towards greater evolution.

Christ was trying to save people from whatever "hell" they could create for others on Earth or for themselves on the Other Side. His Way can create a safe and easy passage to heaven and greater depths towards Divine Union.

Yes indeed there are a few NDE accounts as you mention, however, this is only a temporary state. When you die, you continue to create your reality and if you wish to create a hellish realm that is what you will get. Those who created that negative energy on earth continue to create that energy when they pass but its not eternally judgmentally "imposed" on them by some punishing deity. They come to realize they are the creators of their reality and stop creating that negative hellish energy for themselves and eventually go to the light like everyone else. This is all explained very well in the conversations with God channeled material.

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

Well, the big question here, in the Christian Forum, is why focus on hell, when there is such wonderful news about how to avoid it? The liberal and free gift of God for us? Namely, "Salvation"

In order to spread the good news that there is no hell and no need to fear at all as God is an unconditional loving entity and not the dysfunctional one you portray that allows a place of eternal torment without reprieve to exist.

The Lord is referred to in the Old Testament as both "Savior", and "Redeemer"
No doubt, the disaffected would like to change the meaning of those words. However? "Saved means Rescued, as by another, and Salvation itself infers to be saved from something.

Redemption? To be redeemed back from something...

Those I mentioned in the biblerealitycheck website are not “disaffected” but self proclaimed Christians who use the intelligent scholarly methods of linguistics and critical thought to interpret the bible instead of foolishly clinging and citing the doctrines handed down to them by others as you do.

Yes saved and redeemed means needing to be saved and redeemed from something but the definition is not limited to being saved from one specific thing i.e. a place called hell. Your own negative fear based thoughts and beliefs can qualify.

Jesus, in the Bible, tells the story of "Lazerus, and the Rich man". He had never used personal names in any of His other parables.

Lazerus was a poor man who the rich guy paid no mind to. The rich guy ate well, "sumptuously", and lived luxuriously.

He stated that when Lazerus died, he went to the bosom of his distant descendant, Abraham, founder of the Jewish nation.
Interesting no?
With regard to what we read in the many NDE accounts today?

The Rich guy however found himself on the other side of a wide gulf which seperated him from both Abraham, and Lazerus, Who desired something for his thirst, still being found with carnal desire... having to do with the heat and flames all around him.
THIS is where the perception of hell comes from, today.

Most likely the hell within and not a literal place god banishes sinners to for eternal suffering after they die. There is much debate within the Christian community about the true meaning of this parable and there is no definitive consensus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_man_and_Lazarus
Besides if hell was real place that you could possibly end up in after you die, Jesus would have gone in much more detail about it in many passages of the bible instead of offering up one cryptic parable. That, after all, would have been the loving thing to do.

Even though elsewhere, there is no indication of a fiery hell, but rather darkness, and separation...
In fact, it states also in The Book of Revelation, that both death and hell will be thrown into a, "Lake of Fire".

The book of relevation was one big hallucination of metaphors that was written by an unknown author much later who never states that he knew Jesus. Why this work made into biblical canon is anyone’s guess. Taking this work in and of itself as definitive proof of hell is absurd. Many have rejected it and the interpretations vary widely by those who accepted it thereby rendering it inconclusive at best. Especially, when the biblical scholars I cited earlier are using the actual cited in the new testament that Jesus spoke.
Here is an excerpt of the history of the book of relevation that makes my case

Canonical history[edit]
Main article: Development of the New Testament canon
Revelation was the last book to be accepted into the Christian biblical canon, and even at the present day some Nestorian churches reject it.[19] It was tainted because the heretical sect of the Montanists relied on it[20] and doubts were raised over its Jewishness and authorship,[21] and it was not until 419 that it was included in the canon.[22] Doubts resurfaced during the Protestant Reformation, Martin Luther calling it "neither apostolic nor prophetic", while it was the only New Testament book on which John Calvin did not write a commentary.[23] Even today, it is the only New Testament work not read in the Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Orthodox Church, though it is included in Catholic and Protestant liturgies.

Matthew 23:15
"... Pharisees, hypocrites, for you scour sea and land in order to win one convert--and when he is gained, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as yourselves."
You disimiss the notion of hell because He has used the fiery refuse pit as an illustration to you?

You equate “son of gehenna” as a placed called hell that god sends everyone to? Gehenna was a literal fiery garbage dump located outside of Jerusalem and not a celestial place called hell. He was condemning those who proselytized their fear based negative beliefs using the metaphor of a fiery garbage heap to describe those negative beliefs and how they would create this negativity in others hence “sons of gehenna”. Nice try…

If there is nothing to be saved from, then also there is no need for repentance, at all.
"It's all good". Salvation? Not needed...
"Thanks anyway Jesus, but, you're not a Savior, because it is not needed".

All of this is contrary to Biblical instruction and teaching as a whole.
Again, Jesus Himself spoke about how the road to LIFE is narrow and straight, and few being found upon it...
and, the how road to Destruction is broad, and wide....

"For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it." - Mathew 7:13

(This is quite different than someone having narrow, myopic mindset and view, dismissing Truth, and ignoring it.)

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Matthew-7-14/

In the Old Testament, salvation is wrought by the substitutional, and atoning lamb. The rituals ordained by God from early on, and for the situation of conscience.

The long prophesied Savior and Messiah, prophesied in many places through the ages of the writings, was born to die for the sins of the whole world.
In "atonement". ~ Again, if it is all good, there is no need.

Which, as one observes through the centuries of history, and in the world today, ought to be apparent enough to anyone with an objective mind, and perception.
That there is a need for salvation, and to be saved from something, involving the infernal.
Which victory and accomplishment He has attained, involving also the denial of Ego.
God is no respector of persons, as it is written, and we are all in the same boat, "here".

Being found in this temporary, transient, organic situation. in "Illusory" time and space.

Again, you foolishly and mistakenly believe that Jesus mission was to save us from a creator hell bent on eternally punishing us in a place called hell after we die and offer us very flimsy questionable interpretations of a place called hell.

I (and the bible reality check folks) were never questioning that Jesus came here to save us and redeem us, they are questioning what he came here to save us from. As I mentioned earlier there are many things we can be saved from, including negative fear based beliefs that cause us to rob cheat steal etc. You seem to be hell bent on thinking it’s a place of eternal torment we go to when we die that is not evidenced in the bible.

Also, to rise again, and to be an ever living mediator before God, on behalf of a fallen mankind. Himself being perfect, and taking our place in judgement.
Only God is perfect.

Your opinion

Bottom line here is that you provided ONLY 2 very negligible passages open to interpretation to make your very flimsy case for a place called hell. Neither of these passages go into the detail necessary to make the definitive case you suggest. If the stakes were that high (you either go to heaven or eternal torture) and hell was for real, Jesus would have gone into it in much more detail about it than those 2 ambiguous passages. I am not including the book of revelations for the obvious reasons I mentioned above.

On the other hand W.L. Graham offers very much more than you do to make their case against hell based on linguistics, scholarly research etc. Furthermore you are unable to provide anything that directly disputes their findings and analysis. You have failed to make a valid case supporting your position.

[Amilius777]

I know Neal Donald Walsch and I don't buy into his books.
Majority of what he says is bits and pieces taken from edgar
Cayce, Yogananda, Krishnamurti, some stuff from Elizabeth Claire Prophet, and a
Few things from A Course in Miracles

In fact I rarely trust anyone who writes saying they have the answers to everything.

Another thing is those are NDE where the person experienced hell to be warned and moved on. Some NDE about hell depict seeing others who are in hell. One I read where a woman saw people in Roman garments meaning they had been here for a few thousand years, in a state of Hell.

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by Amilius777

I know Neal Donald Walsch and I don't buy into his books.
Majority of what he says is bits and pieces taken from edgar
Cayce, Yogananda, Krishnamurti, some stuff from Elizabeth Claire Prophet, and a
Few things from A Course in Miracles

In fact I rarely trust anyone who writes saying they have the answers to everything.

Another thing is those are NDE where the person experienced hell to be warned and moved on. Some NDE about hell depict seeing others who are in hell. One I read where a woman saw people in Roman garments meaning they had been here for a few thousand years, in a state of Hell.

Spiritual truths are spiritual truths no matter where they show up. If they show up in many places among many authors then there is something worthwhile and truthful going on there IMO. I dont remember Neal saying he has the answers to everything. On the contrary, he is very adamant of saying he doesn't know everything or have all the answers. Can you show me the quote?

I stand corrected regarding the NDE website. They do mention "hellish realms" so to speak, but that these realms are a state of mind not a place, and are not permanent or meant for punishment but for purification and if you merely ask for and seek the light, you will get help and get to heaven. There is too much there to list here so I will merely post the link but it is nevertheless fascinating material

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research14.html

Regardless, there is no place of eternal torment that God set up for punishment purposes. If you think and live "hellishly" when alive and you wish to continue to do so when you die, you will be allowed but you always have the choice to choose heaven even after you pass on.

[Amilius777]

I don't think you may know many evil people. I know people, persons once in my family, perhaps you do too.

But the one thing about wicked people is that they rarely change, usually trying to justify their ugly belief system.

Most people don't change. Good people are always changing because they are always accepting the next challenge and obstacle of spiritual growth.