No path or practise required.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by Moondance

The fact of the numerous opening threads and comments posted here is evidence of an attempt to elicit some kind of shift in understanding.

It is a path of sorts, a technique, an invitation. It says ‘look, there’s no need for a path or technique since oneness is already the case’. Not realising that the very proclamation of this serves no other purpose than to provoke a new understanding. Its objective is, in effect, no different to self inquiry - it’s a way of looking anew in order to precipitate a shift in perception.

It's specious and shallow at best. Not an inquiry.

Your enso represents that, as do many of the masters ("seek and ye shall find", "Who am I?" "What is Truth?" "what is consciousness" "Where is the real Guru" "Heart Sutra" "The whole world is my self" "finger pointing to the moon" "what you seek is what is seeking")

Furthermore, as I stated elsewhere, these types of posts "there is nothing to do" "you have already arrived" "trust me I know best" seek to posit themselves as superior to the thousands of years of proven traditions. I have no issue against breaking the mold, I don't however have faith in people who posit useless and specious shortcuts that undermine a genuine path of faith and spiritual practice.

BT

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by blossomingtree

It's specious and shallow at best. Not an inquiry.

Your enso represents that, as do many of the masters ("seek and ye shall find", "Who am I?" "What is Truth?" "what is consciousness" "Where is the real Guru" "Heart Sutra" "The whole world is my self" "finger pointing to the moon" "what you seek is what is seeking")

Furthermore, as I stated elsewhere, these types of posts "there is nothing to do" "you have already arrived" "trust me I know best" seek to posit themselves as superior to the thousands of years of proven traditions. I have no issue against breaking the mold, I don't however have faith in people who posit useless and specious shortcuts that undermine a genuine path of faith and spiritual practice.

BT

Hello BT

I don’t have a problem with direct pointing as an approach. In the hands of certain writers/speakers it can be powerful and insightful. It’s not really a teaching as such, it’s more of a reporting/sharing - although it’s objectives are much the same. I think there is room for it alongside other approaches. But as you say, some of it is shallow - especially when it is second or third hand - which much of it is. It can also be inconsistent and muddled and it avoids accountability for some of its circular reasoning and lapses of logic (but then, most approaches do.)

My comments above are in the context of Jyotir’s post. I was agreeing with his view that it is disingenuous to suggest that this direct form of reporting doesn’t constitute a path, method or technique of sorts. And no, it’s not the same as self inquiry but its implied objective is ultimately the same.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Moondance

Hello BT

I don’t have a problem with direct pointing as an approach. In the hands of certain writers/speakers it can be powerful and insightful. It’s not really a teaching as such, it’s more of a reporting/sharing - although it’s objectives are much the same. I think there is room for it alongside other approaches. But as you say, some of it is shallow - especially when it is second or third hand - which much of it is. It can also be inconsistent and muddled and it avoids accountability for some of its circular reasoning and lapses of logic (but then, most approaches do.)

My comments above are in the context of Jyotir’s post. I was agreeing with his view that it is disingenuous to suggest that this direct form of reporting doesn’t constitute a path, method or technique of sorts. And no, it’s not the same as self inquiry but its implied objective is ultimately the same.

I think the saying 'nothing to be done' is meaningful in the sense that to realise is to notice it, rather than make it happen.

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think the saying 'nothing to be done' is meaningful in the sense that to realise is to notice it, rather than make it happen.

That’s a good point and I agree with it. Yet the teachers who employ this type of pointing do so in order to elicit such a realisation. Therefore it constitutes a method of some kind that sits alongside other methods.

[blossomingtree]

Thank you for your reasoned comments and contribution Moondance.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Moondance

That’s a good point and I agree with it. Yet the teachers who employ this type of pointing do so in order to elicit such a realisation. Therefore it constitutes a method of some kind that sits alongside other methods.

I think people take what a teacher said out of context, and if you u-tube non-dual videos, they are typically like an hour long (ain't nobody got time fer dat!). I haven't listened to some few, but I have heard many Jiddu Krishnamurti talks. His self determined path began with his speech 'The Truth is a Pathless Land', which marked him ending The Order of the Star of India, the spiritual organisation he headed. The speech transcript is pretty short and it's worth a look in context of this thread...

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/about-k...ion-speech.php

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Why are there so many Satsangs then ? The phenomena of which has taken off in recent times, with people who claim 'Awakening' attending on a regular basis ? There is also an economic structure given to this 'Structure' of Satsang attendance, which is quite rigid in it's application, especially when it comes to things like retreats. These 'practices' seem to me to be of the same kind as people attending religious or spiritual events as you point out, albeit in a different context. I think church can be very cheap you can Satsang there for free on Sundays and other days if you wish. Any views on this ?

Yes Guru belief is like the belief in God.

Ideas and concepts are not enough. Those who dont believe are condemned as governed by the mind and ego. Far to much critical thought and investigation going on. New age hippie circles are the most gentle I have found. The worse that can happen to you there is you get massaged to death:)

[Moondance]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think people take what a teacher said out of context, and if you u-tube non-dual videos, they are typically like an hour long (ain't nobody got time fer dat!). I haven't listened to some few, but I have heard many Jiddu Krishnamurti talks. His self determined path began with his speech 'The Truth is a Pathless Land', which marked him ending The Order of the Star of India, the spiritual organisation he headed. The speech transcript is pretty short and it's worth a look in context of this thread...

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/about-k...ion-speech.php

Yes, no argument with JK’s assertion that truth cannot be organised.

My point is that if you are a seeker you are already on a path of sorts and the gravitational pull towards clarity is already in motion.

You may be drawn to disciplines such as traditional Advaita Vedanta or Buddhism or you may incline towards the more casual approach of attending meetings of satasang and ‘no path’ speakers. You might meditate or self inquire or spend time in nature. In these days of widespread media and technology your path might simply involve watching online videos and/or buying books and contributing to forums.

Either way, so long as you are seeking you will find yourself on a path (of sorts.)

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think people take what a teacher said out of context, and if you u-tube non-dual videos, they are typically like an hour long (ain't nobody got time fer dat!). I haven't listened to some few, but I have heard many Jiddu Krishnamurti talks. His self determined path began with his speech 'The Truth is a Pathless Land', which marked him ending The Order of the Star of India, the spiritual organisation he headed.

The irony of Jiddu Krishnamurti is that he declared that Truth is a Pathless Land and there is no need to follow any teachers, thus attracting thousands of followers who looked to him as a teacher and tried to realise Truth through following his teachings. Did anyone actually succeed in realising this Truth? I believe that JK became very frustrated over the years because no-one seemed to realise the Truth he spoke about.

Peace.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The irony of Jiddu Krishnamurti is that he declared that Truth is a Pathless Land and there is no need to follow any teachers, thus attracting thousands of followers who looked to him as a teacher and tried to realise Truth through following his teachings. Did anyone actually succeed in realising this Truth? I believe that JK became very frustrated over the years because no-one seemed to realise the Truth he spoke about.

Peace.

Yep that is the irony, and after his death a huge organisation sprung up in his name with ashram retreats and the whole bit.