There is no you

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

It's firstly obvious you are here, so there's no point in searching for that, but being self aware is the essence of mindfulness, so I advocate mindful practice. The practice is 'to see it as it is' - and doesn't concern what might become in the future.

In the logical sense, you don't exist as the person you remember in the past, nor as the person one becomes in the future - you exist in the immediacy of here and now, not as an 'enlightened being', but just as you are right now. It seems obvious - but it is often overlooked.

Agreed, there is no point searching for the obvious, but the enquiry and the search into 'what is here' isn't obvious .

The peeps that renounce the enquiry or the search because they are believing there is no 'you' to begin with is saddled with confusion .

The enquiry and search truly becomes you when there is belief in that one is more than what is obvious.


x daz x

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Agreed, there is no point searching for the obvious, but the enquiry and the search into 'what is here' isn't obvious .

We often find people are looking for an experience other than the current experience, so I merely suggest looking into what is already here.

The peeps that renounce the enquiry or the search because they are believing there is no 'you' to begin with is saddled with confusion .

So one can be aware of the confusion as the 'knower of the mind' so to speak.

The enquiry and search truly becomes you when there is belief in that one is more than what is obvious.


x daz x

It is obvious to everyone that they are presently aware. Many people are looking for an experience other than the current one, but I think better to be here with 'this', because that's the way it actually is.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

We often find people are looking for an experience other than the current experience, so I merely suggest looking into what is already here.


So one can be aware of the confusion as the 'knower of the mind' so to speak.


It is obvious to everyone that they are presently aware. Many people are looking for an experience other than the current one, but I think better to be here with 'this', because that's the way it actually is.

... But some peeps have looked into what's here and now and don't like what they see or don't believe it's the all and be all .

They believe there is more to what you are than what meets the eye . Some have experienced 40 years believing they are just flesh and blood . For some the enquiry has surfaced because there is a part of what they are that is drawing them beyond what you consciously know and experience now .

Why would certain masters suggest to enquire, if all that could be revealed is known here and now .

Searching and enquiring isn't looking for something that is not what you are, it is rather a process of knowing / realizing what you are that is here there and everywhere ..



x daz x

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

... But some peeps have looked into what's here and now and don't like what they see or don't believe it's the all and be all.

They believe there is more to what you are than what meets the eye. Some have experienced 40 years believing they are just flesh and blood. For some the enquiry has surfaced because there is a part of what they are that is drawing them beyond what you consciously know and experience now.

Why would certain masters suggest to enquire, if all that could be revealed is known here and now.

I think the masters advocate inquiry into what is here and now.

Searching and enquiring isn't looking for something that is not what you are, it is rather a process of knowing / realizing what you are that is here there and everywhere.



x daz x

Mainly, you are just as you are right now. There is a purification process we call 'healing' 'alignment' and other things, and I advocate the work that involves.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think the masters advocate inquiry into what is here and now.



Mainly, you are just as you are right now. There is a purification process we call 'healing' 'alignment' and other things, and I advocate the work that involves.

When you say 'but I think better to be here with 'this', because that's the way it actually is'.

I would say Enquiring / looking / searching .... Is being here with this .

Enquiring / looking / searching is how it actually is for certain folk 'now'.

The main point is, why does one enquire / look / search ..

One has to acknowledge why something associating with such thoughts / actions surface in the first place .

In my eyes it doesn't matter which way it comes, one can pick up a book and get inspired to do so, one may have an experience that conflicts / contradicts in some way how they originally perceived things, one can experience a dark night, one can have an inner calling ..

It all potentially mounts to the same .. and that is an altered perception from how it once was .


In regards to the masters that advocate inquiry into what is here and now I agree, but what is here and now is not for some the awareness of Self that they are enquiring into .

You are in essence reaching inwards and outwards for something that is not present, otherwise one would not enquire / look / search .


x daz x

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

When you say 'but I think better to be here with 'this', because that's the way it actually is'.

I would say Enquiring / looking / searching .... Is being here with this .

Enquiring / looking / searching is how it actually is for certain folk 'now'.

The main point is, why does one enquire / look / search ..

Well, some people are trying to find a special kind of experience and others are just ardent about the truth.

One has to acknowledge why something associating with such thoughts / actions surface in the first place .

In my eyes it doesn't matter which way it comes, one can pick up a book and get inspired to do so, one may have an experience that conflicts / contradicts in some way how they originally perceived things, one can experience a dark night, one can have an inner calling ..

It all potentially mounts to the same .. and that is an altered perception from how it once was .

I usually call that sort of thing an insight, which is a transformative realisation.

In regards to the masters that advocate inquiry into what is here and now I agree, but what is here and now is not for some the awareness of Self that they are enquiring into.

I don't think it matters all that much what anyone is aware of, could be a self inquiry, or awareness of breath, awareness of the feeling - but the observation can only notice what is already here. The caveat is, the mind is perceptive to only a degree, and there are subtle levels people aren't consciously aware of. The purification process will involve honing that sensitivity of mind's perception to clear at deeper subtler levels.

You are in essence reaching inwards and outwards for something that is not present, otherwise one would not enquire / look / search .


x daz x

One only has to remain aware of what they can perceive, sans the personal reactivity of mind, because mind remains dull when it's reactive, agitated, and it becomes deep, clear and sharp in stillness.

[God-Like]

Originally Posted by Gem

Well, some people are trying to find a special kind of experience and others are just ardent about the truth.


I usually call that sort of thing an insight, which is a transformative realisation.


I don't think it matters all that much what anyone is aware of, could be a self inquiry, or awareness of breath, awareness of the feeling - but the observation can only notice what is already here. The caveat is, the mind is perceptive to only a degree, and there are subtle levels people aren't consciously aware of. The purification process will involve honing that sensitivity of mind's perception to clear at deeper subtler levels.


One only has to remain aware of what they can perceive, sans the personal reactivity of mind, because mind remains dull when it's reactive, agitated, and it becomes deep, clear and sharp in stillness.

Sure, one can only notice what is already here, but to use your example of awareness of breath, one can leave it be as it is, functioning in the background or one can instead pay it attention . One might be surprised by the course of attention / action and what results in it .

Same goes for paying attention on the 'you' that is present now . Paying attention to I AM now can potentially reveal something that was previously unencountered before .

What wasn't encountered prior too paying such attention was not made aware of at the moment of paying attention .

It can be said however that what revealed itself as a result of attention / enquiry may have surfaced without enquiring or paying attention at some point ..

It happens as it happens in this respect and that will be a reflection of ripeness ..

Some conditionings are held on by a single thread for some where for others they have to first untangle the knots ..


x daz x

[Gem]

Originally Posted by God-Like

Sure, one can only notice what is already here, but to use your example of awareness of breath, one can leave it be as it is, functioning in the background or one can instead pay it attention . One might be surprised by the course of attention / action and what results in it .

Same goes for paying attention on the 'you' that is present now . Paying attention to I AM now can potentially reveal something that was previously unencountered before .

What wasn't encountered prior too paying such attention was not made aware of at the moment of paying attention .

It can be said however that what revealed itself as a result of attention / enquiry may have surfaced without enquiring or paying attention at some point ..

It happens as it happens in this respect and that will be a reflection of ripeness ..

Some conditionings are held on by a single thread for some where for others they have to first untangle the knots ..


x daz x

Yep, we have to deal with the distraction, as the mind is concentrated and attentive but for distraction, so I advocate a sound mindfulness practice to reveal agitations of the mind and resolve them.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by God-Like

I have had plenty of chats about this before with peeps who say they are not here and they seem to get a little cross at times . They can defend their beliefs and they don't seem to answer certain questions .

They also preserve their mind-body experience even though it's illusory .

This kinda mind set / behaviour doesn't add up .

x daz x

This non-duality forum seems to be populated (for the time being) by people who think that saying "All is One" is the end of the matter or that they don't really exist etc. I personally suspect that it is appealing to people who suffer and don't really know how to deal with it. Anyway.

I do believe I see where Gem is coming from - he is trained to see things "as they are" - and that is one part of Buddhist meditation. It is taught by famous teachers such as Ajahn Sumedho in the Buddhist Theravadan teacher, and is highly respected and respect-worthy. But you are also technically correct, in my opinion, as many of the enlightened Buddhist teachers speak of a much higher perspective/insight.

Seeing things as they are is an interim step, and a fine one, but it is by no means the end of it. Were it so, the teachers would not have taught and instead they would have just been mindfulness certified practitioners selling their wares on the WWW or just trying to deal with "stuff" as opposed to genuine/fulfilled Buddhist enlightenment/Nibbana

***

Here is some added context for this thread from a Buddhist teacher:

Someone said: "The teachings about virtue, concentration, discernment, and release that I've memorized from books and from the teachings of various ajaans: Are they in line with Luang Pu's understanding of their essence?"

Luang Pu answered,

"Virtue means the normalcy of a mind that's free of faults, the mind that has armored itself against doing evil of any kind. Concentration is the result that comes from maintaining that virtue, i.e. a mind with solidity, with stillness as the strength sending it on to the next step. Discernment — "what knows" — is a mind empty, light, and at ease, seeing things clearly, all the way through, for what they really are. Release is a mind that enters emptiness from that emptiness. In other words, it lets go of the ease, leaving a state where it is nothing and has nothing, with no thought remaining at all."

***

Even though people would come in groups to hear Luang Pu's opinion about rebirth, claiming that this person or that was able to remember many past lives, seeing what they had been in the past or who their mothers or relatives in past lives had been, Luang Pu would say,

"I've never been interested in this sort of knowledge. Even just threshold concentration can give rise to it. Everything comes from the mind. Whatever you want to know or see, the mind will grant you the knowledge or vision — and quickly at that. If you're satisfied with just this level of knowledge, the good result is that you'll fear being reborn on a low level. That way you'll set your mind on doing good, being generous, observing the precepts, and not harming one another. You'll be able to smile, confident in the results of your merit.

"But as for eliminating defilement to destroy ignorance, craving, and attachment in order to reach total release from suffering, that's something else entirely."

****

When those two monks heard Luang Pu say that he dwelled with knowing, they were silent for a moment and then asked him to explain what dwelling with knowing was like.

Luang Pu explained,

"Knowing is the normality of mind that's empty, bright, pure, that has stopped fabricating, stopped searching, stopped all mental motions — having nothing, not attached to anything at all."


Ajahn Dune Atulo - Gifts He Left Behind

[Gem]

There is no end when it comes to seeing 'as it is' apart from the conceptions which we might attribute to that, which is quite the irony. The construction of 'more' will continually place an objective to be reached in the future, which apart from being a fabrication in itself, prompts an attachment to future objects/experiences, which are craved for and sought after.

I think it would do good to look into the nature of the search itself, as I precede the search and have the ability to be aware of it. I doubt there is anything at the end of the search which doesn't precede it in the first place, since I certainly precede it.

Now I can't be in denial because I already know my self searching can only pertain to 'this'. I don't exist in the future sometime, nor am I any memory I might have of myself. I can only be here just the way I am.

As there is no 'me' in the past or the future, there is no time in which I exist. That is an illusion created by reactions to avoid the pain and pursue the pleasure. That brings about the illusion of a 'me' who comes from the past and goes into the future.

In my dullness, distraction, fear and so forth I understand there's obstacles to overcome, but there is nothing to pursue, and I can only address obstacles with quiet stillness of mind, remaining aware in this moment as past 'fabrications' to come through - letting it be 'as it is...'

I suddenly realise how inevitable it is. I know this has already arisen and there is nothing I can do about it after the fact. How futile all my efforts to make it otherwise are. I see the futility, the impossibility of my efforts to change it, fix it, heal it and so on. I see the ridiculous character, 'Gem', who does all these things flailing about in desperation at having been 'caught out'. That's the imminent end of the thing called 'Gem'.

People want there to be an end game, and I recall reading a political document of all things, written by an Australian Aboriginal elder, which was titled "The End is in the Beginning", and I didn't quite 'get it' at the time, or I got it on quite a superficial level, but I think now I see what the man was saying in the deeper sense of it.