Observation

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

What I try to discuss, observation, isn't some material or knowledge, so it can't be taught. Its what is happening already, and you observe these words as a conscious awareness. In essence, it doesn't so much matter where the attention goes and what object draws the attention, it's that attention itself which is follows whatever sensed object one is interested in noticing. None of these attributes, awareness, attention, noticing, is a learned artifact. It's simply what is happening. This conversation isn't really supposed to be about 'something' - it is more like a continual reminder that we're awake to the whole of it, and not that we need to wake up, but to just notice the most simple and obvious fact that 'this is how it is'.

Of course we already know observation is here, and there's no way of arguing it. It is simply unquestionable. If questioned, you observe that question coming up, so we not going after the answer which proceeds the question - we're going to observation, which preceeds it. This implies the irrelevance of 'what' is observed, and brings the attention to itself, so to speak. The knowing 'this is awareness' (which is altogether non-verbal).

This makes observation as a topic a very difficult one. This isn't a theory or a knowledge which I can explain and another will understand intellectually. This is really to do with the kind of listening which one attends to and follows by noticing themselves in a subjective and immediate way. The formlessness of one and the motions of the other. It isn't supposed to be formulated into an artifact and held as acquired knowledge. It is about close and careful attention, which is the way in which we really should endeavour to heed one another, if indeed we care at all.

If the dialogue is followed in the way I tried to describe, carried out sincerely, there is something in it to be realised, connected to, of a far more sublime quality.

Sorry I didn't reply directly in response to what you said, but I am trying to convey how subtle and deep this is, how immaterial and transient it is to observe.

We may as observers notice the mind making a formulation to hold onto, to know, but this is just a reminder, as though the thoughts and things we observe remind us to 'come home' rather than distract us into a fallen dream.

I understand. I am becoming more conscious of myself not needing to entertain my observations, more be one with it all and notice myself in all that.. I notice in this way, people naturally attend to themselves to notice more in themselves in this way of myself being myself and observing myself instead.

I find this conscious practice not always easy, because you are challenged to continuously break through old patterns in yourself. But of late I am noticing shifting more into an ease with this understanding and relating.

One thing I notice more and more in myself physically is that by being more present in this way your sharing, I am aware of "how much I am giving away" rather than being more stabilized in my body and observing more. Its like I am letting to much flow outward in the shared space without realizing what is losing of itself in all that in me physically.. With this comes an affect in the back of my neck where I feel clouded over and almost exhausted in my own energy. Its a good signal to pull back further into my body and be more mindful in this way your sharing as I see it now.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I understand. I am becoming more conscious of myself not needing to entertain my observations, more be one with it all and notice myself in all that.. I notice in this way, people naturally attend to themselves to notice more in themselves in this way of myself being myself and observing myself instead.

I think when we say we attend to ourselves, we really mean that we are aware of our mind moving and sensations in our body.

Other senses like sounds and sights don't seem like 'me' - they seem one step removed, but feeling is very direct and much closer to 'myself'. This mainly because emotion is manifest throughout the body, so when we say "I feel emotional"... we're basically describing the physical affect, which is why the dense emotional content is referred to as 'the pain body'. It might be a very subtle thing, but our psychological reactivity occurs at the same level as sensation. If we can keep some attention in our body, we're in very close touch with 'ourselves' on the psycho-emotional level as well. If we really look, that we refer to as ourselves isn't just the mind/body sensations but the living consciousness it manifests to, and it is as though a living and present gaze remains constant while the felt appears as a changing motion... so in my last post when I said 'the whole of it' I meant all this - but rather than a mind body duality, it's the manifest and unmanifest as one at the point of sensation. Because the mind/body manifest is 'the creation' so to speak, we have the ability to perceive at an extraordinarily subtle level... but it might take some practice.

I worked through the body by feeling it from head to toe over and over again and again and again. Once I say with my breath for 10 whole days, and then I felt my body for 10 more, and my mind went deeper day by day, past all the usual distractions of my normal everyday life, and I learned so much about myself, sensation, reaction, emotional contents as tensions and hard lumps and pains here and there - and this was a long and painful exercise. I had done quite a lot of meditation before this extreme endeavour, so I had already developed skill at being peaceful with myself, so although this sounds like a horrible thing to do, from my perspective, pain is here and I'm not bothered at all. Not saying it was east because it was really grueling, but I was so interested in 'getting to the bottom of it' I just sat, felt, repeat... and as mind went deeper day by day, the body became subtler as well. So gross mind, agitated and jumpy = gross body with pain and agony - Subtle deeper more sensitive mind - subtle more sensitive body. At some level, what usually would be hard solid pain just dissolves into a miriad of subtle nuances of movement, and the whole body/mind is just a intricate dynamic of living movement.

I find this conscious practice not always easy, because you are challenged to continuously break through old patterns in yourself. But of late I am noticing shifting more into an ease with this understanding and relating.

I claim, after doing this great study of mine, that patterned conditioning is tied by reactivity to sensations in the body. Sometimes it seems the sensations cause you to react, sometimes is seems this reaction pattern causes tense solidity in the body. Basically though, I just call it a pattern of reactivity, and by keeping attention at a sensation level without reacting breaks that cycle. Plenty of times I experienced solid body simply dissolve and that part of the body 'open up'. After quite a lot of this, sublime love just came bubbling up right from the centre of my heart, and that left me in the radiance of metta, which floods through me and extends outward to all living beings, as fundamentally, I see all things with the purity of love.

One thing I notice more and more in myself physically is that by being more present in this way your sharing, I am aware of "how much I am giving away" rather than being more stabilized in my body and observing more. Its like I am letting to much flow outward in the shared space without realizing what is losing of itself in all that in me physically.. With this comes an affect in the back of my neck where I feel clouded over and almost exhausted in my own energy. Its a good signal to pull back further into my body and be more mindful in this way your sharing as I see it now.

I feel quite comfortable to speak, so I can tell you are good, maybe a little bizarre, but basically free of malicious intent... and as I implied, the love which is is already present, and it is the purification of the things that obscure it and/or block its channel. Like when we have unclean water, we don't add clean to it - we just filter out the dirt, and the cleanness is there.

I think in life we have to take care about people who want to take, take, take, because I have the inkling you tend to give without expecting anything in return. It's very hard when there is so much pain and tragedy, and I guess all healers risk getting burnt out... I have found ones presence counts, and in most of humanities just being there is the hardest skill of all. Keeping some awareness planted in the body sensation keeps one anchored here, and acutely aware to that emotional hair trigger, so yup, coming out of the mind and into the body is prolly the way to go.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think when we say we attend to ourselves, we really mean that we are aware of our mind moving and sensations in our body.

Other senses like sounds and sights don't seem like 'me' - they seem one step removed, but feeling is very direct and much closer to 'myself'. This mainly because emotion is manifest throughout the body, so when we say "I feel emotional"... we're basically describing the physical affect, which is why the dense emotional content is referred to as 'the pain body'. It might be a very subtle thing, but our psychological reactivity occurs at the same level as sensation. If we can keep some attention in our body, we're in very close touch with 'ourselves' on the psycho-emotional level as well. If we really look, that we refer to as ourselves isn't just the mind/body sensations but the living consciousness it manifests to, and it is as though a living and present gaze remains constant while the felt appears as a changing motion... so in my last post when I said 'the whole of it' I meant all this - but rather than a mind body duality, it's the manifest and unmanifest as one at the point of sensation. Because the mind/body manifest is 'the creation' so to speak, we have the ability to perceive at an extraordinarily subtle level... but it might take some practice.

I worked through the body by feeling it from head to toe over and over again and again and again. Once I say with my breath for 10 whole days, and then I felt my body for 10 more, and my mind went deeper day by day, past all the usual distractions of my normal everyday life, and I learned so much about myself, sensation, reaction, emotional contents as tensions and hard lumps and pains here and there - and this was a long and painful exercise. I had done quite a lot of meditation before this extreme endeavour, so I had already developed skill at being peaceful with myself, so although this sounds like a horrible thing to do, from my perspective, pain is here and I'm not bothered at all. Not saying it was east because it was really grueling, but I was so interested in 'getting to the bottom of it' I just sat, felt, repeat... and as mind went deeper day by day, the body became subtler as well. So gross mind, agitated and jumpy = gross body with pain and agony - Subtle deeper more sensitive mind - subtle more sensitive body. At some level, what usually would be hard solid pain just dissolves into a miriad of subtle nuances of movement, and the whole body/mind is just a intricate dynamic of living movement.



I claim, after doing this great study of mine, that patterned conditioning is tied by reactivity to sensations in the body. Sometimes it seems the sensations cause you to react, sometimes is seems this reaction pattern causes tense solidity in the body. Basically though, I just call it a pattern of reactivity, and by keeping attention at a sensation level without reacting breaks that cycle. Plenty of times I experienced solid body simply dissolve and that part of the body 'open up'. After quite a lot of this, sublime love just came bubbling up right from the centre of my heart, and that left me in the radiance of metta, which floods through me and extends outward to all living beings, as fundamentally, I see all things with the purity of love.


I feel quite comfortable to speak, so I can tell you are good, maybe a little bizarre, but basically free of malicious intent... and as I implied, the love which is is already present, and it is the purification of the things that obscure it and/or block its channel. Like when we have unclean water, we don't add clean to it - we just filter out the dirt, and the cleanness is there.

I think in life we have to take care about people who want to take, take, take, because I have the inkling you tend to give without expecting anything in return. It's very hard when there is so much pain and tragedy, and I guess all healers risk getting burnt out... I have found ones presence counts, and in most of humanities just being there is the hardest skill of all. Keeping some awareness planted in the body sensation keeps one anchored here, and acutely aware to that emotional hair trigger, so yup, coming out of the mind and into the body is prolly the way to go.

Thankyou Gem. There is so much wisdom and awareness in this for me right now. I appreciate your sharing the depth of understanding you have obviously gained and practiced to find for yourself.

I am observing myself reading this and I am aware of a small emotional "charge" moving through me as I read this. I have realized in this moment, that my physical body is catching up to me as I know myself now, if that makes sense. That was the realization reading through your offering and awareness. When you have been disconnected to yourself in everyway, it kind of makes sense that you "get used" to the nature of coming back into yourself deeper physically. I think your mention of the takers, hit home in me also, so allowing that movement to take me deeper into that place feeling this.

Its interesting this is not really something I notice because I simply just give for no reason other than just being me, so what you shared has opened up something important for me to observe and notice in myself with this in relation to others in the shared space.

I could have not mentioned the whole observation in me but I just wanted to share how in your open sharing of your own experience's, I was able to gain something important to reflect upon deeper in me.


A little bizarre hey...

[Ground]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Why is it difficult for you to answer the question?

I am just not following the sidetrack offered by Gem since the topic was his threads.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Ground

I am just not following the sidetrack offered by Gem since the topic was his threads.

That's ok. I had almost forgot about my question.
Do you consider yourself a kind hearted person?

[Ground]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

That's ok. I had almost forgot about my question.
Do you consider yourself a kind hearted person?

See if I would consider myself a person, kind hearted or not, could I do this without considering myself being truely a person?
Ascribing any characteristic, quality or the like to myself 'I am such and such a person' or 'I have such and such qualitities' presupposes I consider myself as truely existing the way I have appeared to consciousness innately. But not only that it presupposes also that I consider these characteristics, qualities as truely existing the way they appear to consciousness.
From my perspective however nothing exists inherently, neither myself nor other. So there is no point asking myself what kind of person I am.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Ground

See if I would consider myself a person, kind hearted or not, could I do this without considering myself being truely a person?
Ascribing any characteristic, quality or the like to myself 'I am such and such a person' or 'I have such and such qualitities' presupposes I consider myself as truely existing the way I have appeared to consciousness innately. But not only that it presupposes also that I consider these characteristics, qualities as truely existing the way they appear to consciousness.
From my perspective however nothing exists inherently, neither myself nor other. So there is no point asking myself what kind of person I am.

True you could.

I am the one asking though, not you asking yourself.

If just for this moment of observation on yourself, if you were to look at your own self moving in this world as you, could you consider the question as a point of reference to show yourself to me to support me knowing this. I mean I don't have to know, but I could know, you know and you would satisfy my curiosity as to how you see yourself in this light?

It doesn't mean I lose sight of you as you explain yourself as being, but simply shows you can answer questions that take you out of that space temporarily to notice yourself in this way?

I am sure you have a gauge on your own actions and relating to know the answer..

[Ground]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

True you could.

I am the one asking though, not you asking yourself.

Well but in order to answer your question I would have to ask myself before and I couldn't not do that seriously. Ask a fish what it's like to be a bird.

Originally Posted by naturesflow

If just for this moment of observation on yourself, if you were to look at your own self moving in this world as you, could you consider the question as a point of reference to show yourself to me to support me knowing this. I mean I don't have to know, but I could know, you know and you would satisfy my curiosity as to how you see yourself in this light?

It doesn't mean I lose sight of you as you explain yourself as being, but simply shows you can answer questions that take you out of that space temporarily to notice yourself in this way?

Take my outlook on myself and the world as being one of equanimity or evenness.

Originally Posted by naturesflow

I am sure you have a gauge on your own actions and relating to know the answer..

I have a gauge to notice a slip into ordinary consciousness, yes.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Ground

Well but in order to answer your question I would have to ask myself before and I couldn't not do that seriously. Ask a fish what it's like to be a bird.

Observation doesn't require a question. Just a noticing of yourself being you and how you relate, so you don't have to stop and think so complex about something so easy to just know if you are or if you are not?

Take my outlook on myself and the world as being one of equanimity or evenness.

Even someone who has the outlook of being one of equanimity and evenness can speak from the knowing of themselves being somewhat kind hearted, so I am sure you can find it in there yes?

I have a gauge to notice a slip into ordinary consciousness, yes.

So are you kind hearted if you were to slip up and notice this and give an answer? Or would slipping up mean that you break the rules of equanimity and evenness? In my view of being the "ground of being" I don't place rules upon what I observe as part of myself being me, but then perhaps you do?

[Ground]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Observation doesn't require a question. Just a noticing of yourself being you and how you relate, so you don't have to stop and think so complex about something so easy to just know if you are or if you are not?

Noticing myself is noticing emptiness of truth. Now do you want me to ascribe a truth or a non-truth to what is a non-truth?

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Even someone who has the outlook of being one of equanimity and evenness can speak from the knowing of themselves being somewhat kind hearted, so I am sure you can find it in there yes?

Things happen and are neither one nor different from awareness. Awareness' reactivity cannot be predicted and is beyond ordinary categories.

Originally Posted by naturesflow

So are you kind hearted if you were to slip up and notice this and give an answer? Or would slipping up mean that you break the rules of equanimity and evenness? In my view of being the "ground of being" I don't place rules upon what I observe as part of myself being me, but then perhaps you do?

Rules are the province of ordinary mind. Authenticity is the province of awareness.