What does it Mean to be Agnostic ?

Originally Posted by Chrysaetos

Makes sense.
Atheism is just a label for people who don't believe in deities. It isn't a belief system, it's absence of belief.Not quite. Religions claim to have the absolute truth. No atheist or agnostic will claim to know the ultimate truth about reality.
It's up to the believers to prove their point. They are the ones who say there is a deity, so they are the ones who have to provide justification.

Hi Chysaetos, I don't quite accept that atheism is merely the absence of belief as I have heard many (not all) Atheists affirm their 'positive belief' that there is no God.
I agree that Agnostics aren't claiming to know the ultimate truth about reality, but Atheists make many claims about the nature of reality, every religious counterclaim they make implies a superior knowledge of ultimate truth, but then they too have to have a responsibility to "show us all exactly how they know that"
Thats why I opt out of Atheism because for me it's explanatory power fails to account for so much about the world and the nature of the people in it, eg origins, suffering, meaning, values, etc..

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Perhaps that little old lady Loves that tiny, little wreck of hers. It's not as equal as a five-litre with fancy spray job when it comes to the racetrack but she can drive her little one easily and it doesn't guzzle the fuel. It's right for her and that's what counts. But then, consequences work both ways and until they stick a meter on the end of God his existence is a matter of belief.

Anyone could be shackled by any belief system - but I don't have a system. I tell it like it is and I look, without judgement or prejudice, at whatever the Universe cares to throw past my eyes. I don't look at anything form any particular context other than my own - which is all any of us can do unless you choose a belief system to shackle you. As for the perception of lowered personal responsibility levels, how well do you know me?

As Chrystaetos says - "Atheism is just a label for people who don't believe in deities. It isn't a belief system, it's absence of belief." It's easy to label people - Christian, Atheist or whatever - and put them in nice, neat boxes where we can deal with them. I'll say it again, so many people have put their own views on this across, which is fine, it's what a forum is for. Nobody has asked what Atheists believe. If it was me, I'd be curious and it's one of the first things I would do. That's not having shackled beliefs.

I think we'd all like to think we tell it like it is Greenslade but who among us can confidently say they have all the facts (myself included of course). Looking at what the universe cares to throw past our eyes is a good start but it's also highly subjective. 'Lowered personal responsibility' was not a shot at you, merely an observation of an obvious advantage.
I'm guessing nobody asked about what Atheists believe because a couple of earlier given definitions stated they have no belief, so there seemed to be no point in asking. end transmission........ :-)

I think we need to expand our parameters of what we believe LIFE is. I also think that most people who claim to be atheists are not really atheists, I believe that they would open their minds to say " you know what, I don’t know what god is I don't believe he lives on a throne in the clouds or whatever people think but there is something else going on beyond what I understand"...and if that’s what you feel about things you are not an atheist you are an agnostic.. This means that you do not know what god is, you do not know what LIFE is or consciousness is..to me all of the three words are the same....you don't know what it is but you are willing to know there is something going on that you don't understand.. a grander scheme...So if you consider yourself to be an atheist.. which is fine.. I don't care if anyone is an atheist or not this is not a debate on whether their is a god or not....that is not what this is about...But I would like you to think about what you believe.. because if you believe in LIFE...in LIFE.....self awareness etc you are not an atheist.

Storm xx

Originally Posted by sprinter

I think we'd all like to think we tell it like it is Greenslade but who among us can confidently say they have all the facts (myself included of course). Looking at what the universe cares to throw past our eyes is a good start but it's also highly subjective. 'Lowered personal responsibility' was not a shot at you, merely an observation of an obvious advantage.
I'm guessing nobody asked about what Atheists believe because a couple of earlier given definitions stated they have no belief, so there seemed to be no point in asking. end transmission........ :-)

None of us have all the facts, Sprinter, although there are many that would stand and say they had - and persuade others to believe that. As an Atheist I'm quite happy to discuss any and all beliefs with those that would do the same, but then again I'm just me and curious to the point of being nosey :-) But then, sometimes it's easy to put everything into a nice, neat little box and deal with it accordingly. There should be every point Sprinter, and if people don't bother asking what does that say about them? That only perpetuates the existing differences - the ones people make. Give definitions then move on because there is no point in asking? Sorry, but that doesn't sound too Enlightened to me.

Sorry Storm, but I don't believe that believing in Life means belief in God.

I am somewhat of an agnostic. I believe there is a Divine Being but that it can't be proven (not scientifically, can't be measured but can be spoken of anecdotally) and that none of the religions have it right. I think it is bigger, vaster, grander than we can ever imagine. And that we don't really know a thing about it. Agnostics can hold that there is a God and hold that the God is largely unproven and unknowable. I think religions shoot arrows in the dark. Which is not to say that I feel they have no value. They help but I don't really think that God is something our little human brains can really define and that what most religions say about God is not true.

What if religion is not what it's cracked up to be? What if there's a very different answer to all of this?

Religion started with the Sumerians, at least in that area of the world. They talk of the Annunaki, who are depicted as spacemen who came in flying ships. Put yourself in Sumerian shoes at that time, you come out of your mud hut to see a spaceship flying through the clouds and landing on your front lawn. Wouldn't you consider them gods? There is also what's called Alternative Genesis that puts a different translation on the Bible that essentially says the earth was terraformed by aliens. In many cultures according to a book called Fingerprint of the Gods there are influences that are extraterrestrial in may cultures, usually called 'Golden Ones' or 'Shining Ones'. These Shining Ones are known by different names according to the culture they appear in but their roles are very similar, even to cultures who had - according to history - never even met.

Originally Posted by stormdancer

I think we need to expand our parameters of what we believe LIFE is. I also think that most people who claim to be atheists are not really atheists, I believe that they would open their minds to say " you know what, I don’t know what god is I don't believe he lives on a throne in the clouds or whatever people think but there is something else going on beyond what I understand"...and if that’s what you feel about things you are not an atheist you are an agnostic...

Wow what an excellent reply on such a strong thread!!

I know several Athiests/Agnostics and they are some of the nicest people..... Probably cause they arent thinking/living the way a religion says they should live??

[Redchic12]

Yep. I totally agree with you Dude.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

There is also what's called Alternative Genesis that puts a different translation on the Bible that essentially says the earth was terraformed by aliens.

yeah one of the stories I heard is that 'eden' is on another planet entirely. This place being part of what was created when we were kicked out and had to move on. So no matter where we go on this planet, and say 'this is eden', we'll never get it right? We'll always be unsettled, always looking for something more?

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

. We'll always be unsettled, always looking for something more?

We will always be unsettled as long as we have an ego……