Why does GOD exist?

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Because you're from New Zealand, it's possible that your belief in God can be traced back to the Romans, if so then if it hadn't been for Constantine's quest for power - Constantine was a Pagan by the way, he aligned himself not with God but Hermes - you would be Druidic/pantheistic. Most likely God wouldn't exist in your reality.

Actually I relate far more to Yogic philosophy than any Western mysticism.

Peace.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi there Moonglow

The Tao Te Ching said it best, and depending on the translation you read -
"The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao
The Tao is the mother of all things."

So when God is omniscient, omnipotent and all the other words that are used to define what God is, isn't that not what God is? The definitions and descriptions come from us, we are the source of that consciousness and we are wholly and completely incapable of even coming close to understanding who or what God is. It's a good thing that I'm a fan of irony.

While we're talking about God and trying to tell ourselves how Spiritual we are by formulating and expressing here in the forums, what's really going on? In trying to look clever, Spiritual or anything else haven't we completely missed the point?

If we're not talking about ourselves as God then are we talking about God at all? Jesus said that the Kingdom of God is already within you, what does that mean? If it's all God's creation then aren't we of God, isn't everything of God? Isn't there nothing that is not God?

We're not listening to ourselves Moonglow. We're inventing this egioc narrative and we're following that through as if it's some kind of fact of our existence. It makes us feel better if we tell ourselves that we can spout forth all this wisdom and we can't see how little wisdom there really is. What people do for that dopamine hit, eh?

There comes a time when words and beliefs don't matter any more, for me anyway. I enjoy the forums sometimes but often it feels more like a dressing-up and pretending session more than anything else. I become frustrated sometimes because the words I need to express things as I perceive them simply don't exist. The word 'Spiritual' becomes meaningless after a time and everything falls away from there. If there is nothing that is not God/Spirit then really what's the point of using the words, and if we are listening to Lao Tzu it's a dumb idea anyway.

Why can't we simply exist, Moonglow, without all of this charade?

Hi Greenslade,


Yes, it does seem like a charade at times. Would add possibly depends where someone is at and what exactly is he/she getting at.


Sometimes feel like I'm repeating myself on the forums. I feel at this time that words don't always quite do it. For some understand, others don't, while others feel don't want to bother. Just my take. It comes and goes.
At times enjoy just exchanging thoughts, ideas, and insights.


Wisdom is just what I feel to be wise and is not something one tries to be.
One is wise or one is not. Not a matter of how much one may know, but just a knowing one may have, IMO.



Feel perhaps what some teachings/philosophies point to is when placed in words it is the ego talking and not fully it. The practice of being still is to quiet the chatter and notice what is happening.


On one side there seems those that define it and stick to their guns. On the other there are those that say it is beyond the mind to grasp. If so why bother with it? Then there are those that say look inside and there it is. I say it is inside us and outside us and both play its part.


Guess that is the duality that the mind can play if one feels it is either this way or that. When it is both. For does not existence reflect both? Does not creation include all that is taking form, reforming, and yet to be?


So, can agree in a way words don't quite cut it at times, but suppose it is all we have when wanting to communicate.


Yup, indeed, why can't we all just get along without all the charades and will add power plays.


Just enjoy the exchanges.

Originally Posted by iamthat

Actually I relate far more to Yogic philosophy than any Western mysticism.

Peace.

Then why the "Supreme Being" thing? God/Supreme Being is a throw-back from the Abrahamic religions, which includes Christianity. In pretty much all other religions God is the head/supreme in a hierarchy of Gods.

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi Greenslade,


Yes, it does seem like a charade at times. Would add possibly depends where someone is at and what exactly is he/she getting at.


Sometimes feel like I'm repeating myself on the forums. I feel at this time that words don't always quite do it. For some understand, others don't, while others feel don't want to bother. Just my take. It comes and goes.
At times enjoy just exchanging thoughts, ideas, and insights.


Wisdom is just what I feel to be wise and is not something one tries to be.
One is wise or one is not. Not a matter of how much one may know, but just a knowing one may have, IMO.



Feel perhaps what some teachings/philosophies point to is when placed in words it is the ego talking and not fully it. The practice of being still is to quiet the chatter and notice what is happening.


On one side there seems those that define it and stick to their guns. On the other there are those that say it is beyond the mind to grasp. If so why bother with it? Then there are those that say look inside and there it is. I say it is inside us and outside us and both play its part.


Guess that is the duality that the mind can play if one feels it is either this way or that. When it is both. For does not existence reflect both? Does not creation include all that is taking form, reforming, and yet to be?


So, can agree in a way words don't quite cut it at times, but suppose it is all we have when wanting to communicate.


Yup, indeed, why can't we all just get along without all the charades and will add power plays.


Just enjoy the exchanges.

Hi Moongloow


Many people seem to be stuck on their belief of a supreme being of some and and few seem willing to go any deeper than their beliefs - much like OP. God exists and that's a fact, therefore there's a reason for his existence so let's work out what it is. The rest is mentality and ego, and they're very much the wrong tools for coming to anything close to and understanding. If something more suitable was being brought to bear it would have been so obvious that the question was decidedly flaky to begin with. Is this what the Spirituality is built on?


You're repeating yourself on these forums because the same old patterns are appearing time and again - and they are patterns. Yeah the subjects often change or there's a different wording but underneath it's the same old same old. Few people want to look any deeper than the surface layer. The framework of Spirituality is the framework of the mind and the personal history, to keep it short for now. A discussion about God is a discussion of our relationship with ourselves, and that's very obvious in this thread even from the OP.


Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. Lots of knowledge it seems and not much else.


There is no such thing as duality, there is polarity and that's the secret. Everything in the Universe just is and everything has its own reason for existing. It's the egoic mind that then comes up with the duality in setting one thing against the other. When yo0u exchange 'dichotomy' or 'polarity' for 'duality' so much makes more sense. It's all about relationships not splendid isolation, because understanding doesn't come from isolation. Everything that we are - even our very existence - is because of a relationship with something else. If there is a God then it's because we perceive ourselves as not-God, and it's in that way that God winks into existence.


While we create God, God creates us. 'Technically' our definitions of God create us.


We can't get along because the power-play that Christianity came from is still in motion, two thousand years later. It's still in motion because people buy into it for any number of reasons, yet few it seems are that much interested.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Then why the "Supreme Being" thing? God/Supreme Being is a throw-back from the Abrahamic religions, which includes Christianity. In pretty much all other religions God is the head/supreme in a hierarchy of Gods.

You are confusing Yogic philosophy with the pantheon of Hindu gods and goddesses. It is possible to embrace the concepts of Brahman and Atman without being a Hindu or any other religion. The term Supreme Being is just a label for that which cannot be defined. I could use another label such as Brahman but some people may not be familiar with the term.

Peace.

I think many people use the word "God" to refer to something beyond words - not necessarily a man or woman in the Sky type thing.

JL.

[Moonglow]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Hi Moongloow


Many people seem to be stuck on their belief of a supreme being of some and and few seem willing to go any deeper than their beliefs - much like OP. God exists and that's a fact, therefore there's a reason for his existence so let's work out what it is. The rest is mentality and ego, and they're very much the wrong tools for coming to anything close to and understanding. If something more suitable was being brought to bear it would have been so obvious that the question was decidedly flaky to begin with. Is this what the Spirituality is built on?


You're repeating yourself on these forums because the same old patterns are appearing time and again - and they are patterns. Yeah the subjects often change or there's a different wording but underneath it's the same old same old. Few people want to look any deeper than the surface layer. The framework of Spirituality is the framework of the mind and the personal history, to keep it short for now. A discussion about God is a discussion of our relationship with ourselves, and that's very obvious in this thread even from the OP.


Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad. Lots of knowledge it seems and not much else.


There is no such thing as duality, there is polarity and that's the secret. Everything in the Universe just is and everything has its own reason for existing. It's the egoic mind that then comes up with the duality in setting one thing against the other. When yo0u exchange 'dichotomy' or 'polarity' for 'duality' so much makes more sense. It's all about relationships not splendid isolation, because understanding doesn't come from isolation. Everything that we are - even our very existence - is because of a relationship with something else. If there is a God then it's because we perceive ourselves as not-God, and it's in that way that God winks into existence.


While we create God, God creates us. 'Technically' our definitions of God create us.


We can't get along because the power-play that Christianity came from is still in motion, two thousand years later. It's still in motion because people buy into it for any number of reasons, yet few it seems are that much interested.

Hi Greenslade,

A thought comes to me. If one has true faith in something, then would one question why it exists? Wouldn't one just know it?

Asking why something exist may indicate something is missing. (As I believe you may have stated or getting at). For if not, then it would be obvious. You would see it, feel it, and dare say, know it (atleast for oneself).

So, can relate that asking why God exist is not knowing what God is in the first place or trying to fit this God neatly in a box and say that is it.

I ask again, is it an entity? Yes, can see using terms as "Supreme Being" may imply such. Then again what is "Supreme Being" being referred to and back to square one we go.

If presence and formless, then how to convey this in terms the mind/brain can comprehend. Thus the parables, stories, theologies, and such emerge. Which ends up being a maze of words and interpretations and misinterpretations. Ego power plays and the messages get mucked up to the point that the whole idea of God or experience gets blown apart.

We are God. Man can not be God. God made humans and all. We are Gods chosen ones. On and on it goes. And who is the center of this. God or Humans?
Which could have with in these thoughts why conflict still persists in these regards.

For if about God wouldn't one realize and possibly feel the connection with all?
In this the connection with each other and nature? Wouldn't one know it exists and whatever one calls it matters not, but how one lives with in what unfolds?

Religion gets blamed and having grown up in a Chritian society have seen and experienced its effects, atleast Christianity. But, don't blame the religion itself as much as when it gets misused and believers come across as self righteous and unwilling to listen to any other way. Yes, it still in some ways has its power plays.

Not to bang on the Christians, for other faiths get misused as well for power or preservation of the institution, IMO.

Not saying religion is necessarily bad. For at its base it is spiritual teaching and has some good messages to pass along. Just in some circles can be very narrow and conflicts still erupt over power.

Thus, we do create us (atleast the patterns) in all its glory and not so glorified ways.

Came across something a while back that said something like love and fear lie on the same scale, polar from each other. It depends on where one places themselves that determine what one may experience. But, each contains a bit of the other.

Originally Posted by iamthat

You are confusing Yogic philosophy with the pantheon of Hindu gods and goddesses. It is possible to embrace the concepts of Brahman and Atman without being a Hindu or any other religion. The term Supreme Being is just a label for that which cannot be defined. I could use another label such as Brahman but some people may not be familiar with the term.

Peace.

I'm not confusing anything with anything. Generally speaking, any pantheon of Gods was either a personification the metaphysical or they were actual beings. Some would pray to Mars, the God of War to favour them in battle while the Mayan Viracochas were actual living beings that were worshipped as Gods. God/Supreme Being is a product of philosophy as much as anything else because it's the human way to try and explain That which is beyond explanation. I get that. The 'Supreme Being' part is not from Spirituality but - in part - the mentality that created the concept of God.


The understanding is not that you have beliefs but the reasons you have them.

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

The 'Supreme Being' part is not from Spirituality but
- in part - the mentality that created the concept of God.
The understanding is not that you have beliefs but the reasons you have them.

Hi, What do you mean re what I bolded? Thanks.

Oh I just realized... so I will say it...you probably mean those that have had
no direct exp so made something up; "created a concept''...

Originally Posted by Moonglow

Hi Greenslade,

A thought comes to me. If one has true faith in something, then would one question why it exists? Wouldn't one just know it?

Asking why something exist may indicate something is missing. (As I believe you may have stated or getting at). For if not, then it would be obvious. You would see it, feel it, and dare say, know it (atleast for oneself).

So, can relate that asking why God exist is not knowing what God is in the first place or trying to fit this God neatly in a box and say that is it.

I ask again, is it an entity? Yes, can see using terms as "Supreme Being" may imply such. Then again what is "Supreme Being" being referred to and back to square one we go.

If presence and formless, then how to convey this in terms the mind/brain can comprehend. Thus the parables, stories, theologies, and such emerge. Which ends up being a maze of words and interpretations and misinterpretations. Ego power plays and the messages get mucked up to the point that the whole idea of God or experience gets blown apart.

We are God. Man can not be God. God made humans and all. We are Gods chosen ones. On and on it goes. And who is the center of this. God or Humans?
Which could have with in these thoughts why conflict still persists in these regards.

For if about God wouldn't one realize and possibly feel the connection with all?
In this the connection with each other and nature? Wouldn't one know it exists and whatever one calls it matters not, but how one lives with in what unfolds?

Religion gets blamed and having grown up in a Chritian society have seen and experienced its effects, atleast Christianity. But, don't blame the religion itself as much as when it gets misused and believers come across as self righteous and unwilling to listen to any other way. Yes, it still in some ways has its power plays.

Not to bang on the Christians, for other faiths get misused as well for power or preservation of the institution, IMO.

Not saying religion is necessarily bad. For at its base it is spiritual teaching and has some good messages to pass along. Just in some circles can be very narrow and conflicts still erupt over power.

Thus, we do create us (atleast the patterns) in all its glory and not so glorified ways.

Came across something a while back that said something like love and fear lie on the same scale, polar from each other. It depends on where one places themselves that determine what one may experience. But, each contains a bit of the other.

Hello Moonglow


What is faith though? And true faith implies there is a false faith - and false faith is not really faith at all. If one just knows it then it's no longer a question of faith, and often that knowing is far beyond the egoic mind that wants to come up with a reason.


The conversation about God is not a conversation about God at all and that's the one thing that's completely missing in all of this, so if the conversation is off to a bad start things can only get worse. Like 28 pages of waxing lyrical and flexing of the intellectual muscles and where has it brought us? Is there any conclusion, are we any further forwards at all or have we never really left the place we've always been?



What have we got out of it, Moonglow? So much waxing Spiritual and we're no further on. Really, what was the point? The conversation has never been about God - none of it. It has always been about agenda.


Love and hate lie on the same scale, and one is the polar opposite of the other. Underneath they are the same emotion, the difference is how we feel and how our reaction is manifested. Love and hate also have psychological components to them, the caveman brain has been programmed for survival and we automatically go towards what we Love and away from what we hate or fear. Just like a relationship, the feeling is Love because there's is a benefit to being in the relationship but when the benefit becomes a detriment it becomes instinctual hate.


Similarly with God. One of the reasons Christianity may have been so popular with the oppressed is because it offered salvation from the drudgery and poverty of everyday existence - Spirituality calls it mundane existence. When you get to heaven and you're seated t God's right hand everything will be perfect, the same as when you have those higher vibrations. So yes, the patterns remain the same after two thousand years and 28 pages of..... wisdom????