People free of suffering

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Maisy

There Buddhism is literally saying dukkha includes pain! Yea so I think the idea physical pain and mental pain are different is pretty much ruled out in that quote.

Yes. In a deeper part of the philosophy is a relationship where mind becomes matter and matter becomes mind at the level of sensations, so although pain is not a cause of suffering, the mind manifests discomfort in the body, and people will notice when they start meditation (mindfulness) by sitting upright and still to observe breath, all sorts of aches and pains arise in the body as mind/body conspire together to rebel against bodily and mental stillness. The cause in the passage here is clinging, but 'clinging' includes painful manifestations where mind and matter meet.

[Maisy]

When people meditate in sitting position for 12 hours straight or many hours, like I have seen some people do, I don't think the pain is in their minds. I think the body is not made to sit still like that. The brain sends pain to tell us to get up! Blood circulation is shut off etc. Not good for you in my opinion!

Do anything extreme like that your body tends to gets injured I think. I have a relative that meditates many hours a day for decades and now she needs her hips replaced. I think the two are related. I think she should have done walking meditation instead of sitting still for like 4 hours a day with her hips and legs in weird position for many many years.

In fact, my doctor told me to try not to sit for long periods as it puts massive pressure on your spine and back muscles. In the story of Siddhartha I think he went through all this stuff forcing his body to do things. Then he decided that was not the way. Which is interesting as he later founded monasteries where they were forced to do stuff? I wonder what he had his monks and nuns actually do all day. Did they have to do austere practices with fasting and sitting for hours?

I also was wondering if he had a lot of money as his Father was a King. Then I think at some point his mother was put in charge of the nuns she convinced Buddha to let join. So I guess Buddha's monastery was males and females. Not sure they still do that now days.

[sky]

According to His Sutta/Sutras The Buddha emphasized four different Meditation positions without saying any one is better than the others, sitting, standing, walking, and lying down, this dismisses the notion that there is any single 'best' position. Meditation can be practised regardless of what your doing or whatever position you choose.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Gem

all sorts of aches and pains arise in the body as mind/body conspire together to rebel against bodily and mental stillness.

Was walking meditation an option in the place you were told to sit still upright? Or did they feel one needed to be in some uncomfortable position without moving to get some "spiritual" benefit? If one is transcending mind and thought, I think one can do that anywhere in any position. I did it once while sitting in a car waiting for a person. I did it while laying at the beach too. Usually I do it walking alone. No way to do it walking with some friend who keeps talking. Too distracting.

Then really I think, if one is transcending ALL THOUGHTS! isn't the idea one needs to sit upright, still, and watch their breath a thought? For me the "practice" is taking my attention off my thoughts. I'd say the only thing I require is being alone where it's quiet. For me, it doesn't matter if I am laying down or sitting or walking. Sitting still on a floor or a chair with others around would drive me crazy! I guess you would say well that's the point. Ignore the thoughts that come. But the entire thing is based on thoughts. One thinks one will get a benefit from that. My body/mind will complain and I will transcend those thoughts. But I think there is a subtle twist there. The one seeking a benefit is built of thought.

For me it is not a practice of putting my body in an uncomfortable position and transcending or not paying attention to thoughts that resist that. I try to let go of the person that would be trying something like that in the first place. I'm concentrating or focusing on emptiness. Not holding onto any idea or thought. I'm not conceptualizing myself as this person on a path trying to be more spiritual through practices. To get better at ignoring thought or something like that. In the now I focus and concentrate and let go of the person. If something comes up I don't care. No one here to care or want things to be a certain way, well other than empty of person experience. I am not fighting against anything or trying to get somewhere. Those can't happen unless I have my attention on thought. I am there. We all are always there. We just don't notice.

We were at the highest state while driving to the meditation. While there doing whatever we do, then also in the car on the drive home. Every moment of our lives is a potential to realize who and what we really are. Which is just awareness being fed content from the brain mind. They talk about that some in Zen. Like they may say I was eating a pizza and bam... they saw their true nature.

There is nothing to do or learn. Just something to realize or see or become aware of. Like ah ha...I can drop the one who would be interested in dropping something. Can I give up all trying for anything and just be in the now without one idea about anything? No desire to change anything. No thought that I need to get somewhere else, be something else, do something, learn something, achieve something, experience something. Those all require a person built of mind. I think it's just a matter of seeing the person can be dropped. Have zero goals. Not be trying to become spiritual, just realize we are not "spiritual" when we are identifying as this false person. That is always "seeing" everything through thought. It's like this ball of thought striving, commenting, interpreting and we think that's me. All these core thoughts we accept.

I think if one could completely drop what we carry as self in our minds, well we would be completely enlightened. (Which we already are it's just we are focusing on the thought built self. We live there and operate from there.)

[sky]

This is not what The Buddha taught, He taught 'The Middle Way'.....

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Maisy

Was walking meditation an option in the place you were told to sit still upright? I think if one could completely drop what we carry as self in our minds, well we would be completely enlightened. (Which we already are it's just we are focusing on the thought built self. We live there and operate from there.)

My training was walking, eating, washing, brooming -everything, but retreats are all day sitting up, and during dana service just 2 or 3 group meditations with group metta to finish off the day, and there is no talking - But enough about me.

-----

It's perhaps contradictory since the middle way supposedly admonishes extremes, but legend has it that when Buddha got serious about enlightenment, he resolved to sit there until he awakened, no matter if his bones fell apart, with total do-or-die determination, so simplistic interpretations which people make usually to justify their own ease and comfort neglect contexts where being extreme is promoted, and the contexts in which it is inappropriate. Because people are mostly driven by being right, as the known is what we can cling to, using seeming contradictory positions could win any argument from any side, but the actual contradiction is the mind that fights back and leaps to agree and disagree is not the mind is open to insight.

In my post I didn't even refer to extremes, but respondents answer as if I did, and although there are people that intense meditation practice suits best, I think generally speaking, if you can sit and meditate for an hour or so twice a day that's pretty optimal, and if you have the facility to add a more intense retreat for a week or two every now and then, that'll really lift the game. Where regular crossed legs is best, sitting upright on a chair is also fine. Most would argue about posture, but in the long run there are additional benefits to being upright, like the body can better align later on to the free flow of energy and posture can fall into place, sinuses can open up and the whole system works better, but if people don't want to use 'correct posture' then lying down or reclining is good enough, but sitting up has distinct advantages.

The relationship between mentality and physical sensation is real, and ego is essentiall0y reliant on psychological reactivity to physical sensation, which manifests immediately as physical sensation, to which you react... A great many people live in that cycle, which regenerates ego from moment to moment, and long term repetition of particular mind-states can lead to chronic conditions in the body, but in this post I'm just looking at the arising and passing of physical pain and how that affects suffering and egocentric mentality.

It's hard to understand if you don't sit up to meditate, as reclined and comfortable positions don't produce any discomfort, along with the associated aversions, whereas if you sit upright, in the last 10 minutes of your hour, you will be deep in the truth, 'This is suffering'.

I'm using 'you' generically, and not you personally, and I'm generalising what is typical and not claiming it's true for every individual... Or if it is, it's true in different ways depending on the level a meditator is at.

In Buddhist meditation there's no meditation session that is separate from the day to day, and as you know, pain is inevitable in life, as is pleasure. Mindfulness is the art of being present and unaffected as pleasure and pain arises, changes, and passes away. As such, much to chagrin of spiritualists, pain is essential to the practice of meditation. It's not self inflicted, as in starving and contorting the body like Buddha did in the forest, but it does arise and pass away for no good reason as you sit and watch.

The middle way has a surface understanding as in moderation, but the fundamental 'way' of that centre is equanimity of mind, and mental equanimity what enables a meditator like Gautama Buddha to endure such extremes.


Sorry I started off answering what you said, then I went on my own tangent.

[Gem]

I think the best thing ever written about what I'm saying is Kahlil Gibran's "On Houses". It's a masterpiece. http://www.katsandogz.com/gibran/onhouses.php

[sky]

"When walking, one knows one is walking
When standing one knows one is standing
When sitting one knows one is sitting
When lying down, one knows one is lying down."

The Buddha

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by sky

No pain, no gain...
This is not what The Buddha taught, He taught 'The Middle Way'.....

Like hair shirts! (Cilice) One thought that occurred to me reading this was awareness or knowledge of the root of "pain" leads to gain. Figuring out what I am doing that leads to mental stress or resistance, mental suffering etc. Then not doing it or somehow finding a way to be free of this reaction type way of living...always commenting mentally on everything. Maybe that's where the word "emptiness" comes in as a way to try to describe what this is.

Like say my partner walks into the kitchen after I spent an hour doing the giant pile of dishes and says "you left stains in the sink." The average human brain will react in some negative way. One may feel anger rising up. So what is the cause? Well having a rude entitled self centered partner lol. But what is the "zen" where I never feel any effect from such things?

I think it's being liberated from one's own "mind." If I have no interest in what I am thinking or what others are thinking (or saying) don't put any importance on it as it is just "vapor" it's here then gone! It's like a layer in reality that flashes... here then gone. Such things only hold our interest and add some flavor of "realty" because we grab them, hold them, place a great deal of attention and importance on them.

Because doing this (having our attention in our mind - on thought) can bring us a great deal of pleasure as well. Maybe my partner says, "wow great job I will do the dishes tomorrow but not as good as you did! You're awesome!" See the reaction from that is pleasure. So keeping the attention in thought (ego) can bring pleasure and suffering. So that's the root. If I let go of mind/thought/ego and have zero interest in such things, it doesn't matter what is in my own mind. It doesn't matter what is in somebody elses mind. It makes zero difference what somebody else says, which is just thought projected outward externally.

Say I am great or say I am terrible. If I am not giving any attention or reality to ideas, thoughts, keeping my attention 100% firmly on the now "as it is" where if I am there or not there, I am not adding to it by me being there (I am empty) then such things have zero effect. It doesn't even matter if I react or don't react as I have no interest in my own mind either. My attention is not there. It's on reality as it is, not on the realty mind or thought creates.

[Maisy]

Originally Posted by Gem

Sorry I started off answering what you said, then I went on my own tangent.

I always do that lol. I like reading your posts!