Anattā (no self)

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sentient

???

I had not known about Mooji - only discovering a few of his videos now.

Because one cannot feel his ‘energy field’ or presence from the videos, I wondered what it was that made some people laugh so hard (?)

But it must be the nondual awareness that suddenly dawned on them.
It would make prostrating in front of the Guru (Mooji) the F-U-N-N-I-E-S-T JOKE as well, absolutely hilarious.

With nondual awareness – you both become totally transparent to each other, knowing each other more intimately than being intimate.
There is no colour or culture difference there, no East or West nor indigenous vs white separation in that.
(though at the same time it is interesting to me that Mooji goes to Spain a lot)

If that is what is happening – non-dually seeing each other through and through - how could one not trust that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hm2iK60qEm0

*

I think Mooji's ashram is in Portugal so Spain is on his door step, but there have been reports about misconduct on his part, philandering with the students, financial impropriety, interfering in human relationships, and the standard cult-like 'praise Mooji' all God like, and that sort of thing. This turns my guts, so I keep clear, because when filling a role as a spiritual teacher, one's sila has to be beyond reproach or we create an unreasonably high potential for harm. I cant possibly advocate Mooji or his school because I don't think the safety is adequate. In Buddhism we have, or at least we should have, a foundation of Sila because having high integrity creates a safe refuge. That's why we couldn't have a teacher philandering with students, profiting from our school, or 'getting' anything, when the order of spiritual teaching is to give while expecting nothing in return. A fellow such as Mooji can speak of enlightenment all his life long, and I can speak of simpler things such as truthfulness, right conduct and appropriate boundaries, but I know how to create safe places which are worthy of refuge where people can be vulnerable in safety, which it seems some 'masters' do not.

Non dual awareness doesn't make a person a decent bloke, and it doesn't give a person higher order skill sets which the position of 'teacher' requires, and it doesn't equip them to organise an ashram which is a haven worthy of refuge.

It would be best for people to keep clear of spiritual schools. Some say find a good teacher and so on, but not me. I say grow up, be an adult and stand alone. Be truthful, walk in the truth no matter what happens. If there is a place which provides the facilities which are conducive to serious meditation practice, by all means take advantage of that, but don't become besotted with 'guru' followings, don't take anything as 'answers', and keep that truth of oneself strong.

[JosephineB]

I feel Mooji is off too.

[JosephineB]

Double post.

[running]

Originally Posted by Gem

I think Mooji's ashram is in Portugal so Spain is on his door step, but there have been reports about misconduct on his part, philandering with the students, financial impropriety, interfering in human relationships, and the standard cult-like 'praise Mooji' all God like, and that sort of thing. This turns my guts, so I keep clear, because when filling a role as a spiritual teacher, one's sila has to be beyond reproach or we create an unreasonably high potential for harm. I cant possibly advocate Mooji or his school because I don't think the safety is adequate. In Buddhism we have, or at least we should have, a foundation of Sila because having high integrity creates a safe refuge. That's why we couldn't have a teacher philandering with students, profiting from our school, or 'getting' anything, when the order of spiritual teaching is to give while expecting nothing in return. A fellow such as Mooji can speak of enlightenment all his life long, and I can speak of simpler things such as truthfulness, right conduct and appropriate boundaries, but I know how to create safe places which are worthy of refuge where people can be vulnerable in safety, which it seems some 'masters' do not.

Non dual awareness doesn't make a person a decent bloke, and it doesn't give a person higher order skill sets which the position of 'teacher' requires, and it doesn't equip them to organise an ashram which is a haven worthy of refuge.

It would be best for people to keep clear of spiritual schools. Some say find a good teacher and so on, but not me. I say grow up, be an adult and stand alone. Be truthful, walk in the truth no matter what happens. If there is a place which provides the facilities which are conducive to serious meditation practice, by all means take advantage of that, but don't become besotted with 'guru' followings, don't take anything as 'answers', and keep that truth of oneself strong.

i agree with much of what you said. i dont know anything about moji and not saying he is or isn't anything.

but its true imo spiritual development doesn't make you equipped or good at things as you suggested.

my way of dealing with such is different. i treat the situation like anything else in life. if somebody has the power and wishes to offer it then great. but just like going anywhere else. or dealing with anyone else. dont get caught up in nonsense.

[sentient]

Since I haven’t met (witnessed) Mooji personally – can’t really say what he is or what he isn’t.
So being swayed by either for or against would only be my mind's assumptions.

*

Non-duality is like a light switch turned on ……… & how one handles the situation is a delicate balancing act.

I have got Lama Yeshe’s “The Bliss of Inner Fire” book.
In it he talks about tasting chocolate – as if tasting chocolate was all that mattered, but I didn’t know what he meant by this chocolate.

With the Mooji ‘dilemma’ it suddenly dawned on me – non-duality is the chocolate.

Tasting chocolate is important, but it is a fine extempore art/act. And how any of us would handle it personally (moment to moment anew) is anyone’s guess - (since predetermined ‘handles’ would no longer apply).

*

[Gem]

For me there is the truth of myself and the truth about myself, so I have no claim of enlightenment or any sort of special person, but as far as I am able I remain self-aware, and where I find my own self judgments, I discern the good qualities from the bad qualities, also understanding the pure and impure aspects of the person who I am. With what we call the 'right effort' I can ameliorate the impure complexes that create suffering in my life and cause misery to others, and I can cultivate my purer virtue that leads me to the attention and care others are worthy of, but that aspiration to perfection is dependent on my self awareness, and as well I can to the depth of my conscious awareness, I remain truthful in that regard.

My role in life comes with the responsibility that those I encounter be benefited, and never harmed, so I hold a high standard of integrity to ensure this life I live will result in the world being better off, at least in some small way. This, to me, is the higher order of things, so I have little concern for who might or might not be enlightened, and rather, prefer to mingle among kind and honest folk. My talent has been to be free of want, so within my relationships I want nothing from my peers, and we can form relations, professional, personal, counsel/client, or another type, by framing the boundary conditions that define and create the optimum conditions for mutual benefits and happiness.

It is my belief that our respective lives, and the lives of all beings, are also the one life, and at the root of all these expressions of personality and natures there is a unified connection - and there is something well and beyond that gives rise to the propensity to see all things with the utmost purity of love, which is also core in my heart, and yours.

As a person living a life here I have a very small part in the cosmos, but an integral part with the potential to bring metta into all aspects of my day to day so that all whom I encounter are benefited in some way no matter how insignificant that might be - and in ways I don't even know about.

I have to live in the world where everything is worth - time is money, after all, and I have no dispute with that - but I also believe in a higher order of generosity through this self-expression with a heart free of want - and this begins my trust called refuge in the dhamma; my comfort with uncertainty and allowances of nature's way. All I can do from that perspective is be as true to life as I can be though the shadows of ignorance I have. It's not anyone I have imagined and try to be, nor another figure I want to live up to, but an aspiration, none-the-less, for what is actually true.

[sentient]

These caught my attention - also the way he says it:

When the seeker finds what is stable – the seeker disappears.

Discover the unchanging

*

As you begin to discover who you are – you begin to experience it like a dream, but only because you are waking up.

If you are asleep, then everything in the dream feels real for you.

When you wake up – you see you dream it.

~ Mooji

The Non-duality dream – tasting chocolate whilst your head is in the tiger's mouth.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNd7sgU60vQ

*

Originally Posted by Gem

For me there is the truth of myself and the truth about myself, so I have no claim of enlightenment or any sort of special person, but as far as I am able I remain self-aware, and where I find my own self judgments, I discern the good qualities from the bad qualities, also understanding the pure and impure aspects of the person who I am. With what we call the 'right effort' I can ameliorate the impure complexes that create suffering in my life and cause misery to others, and I can cultivate my purer virtue that leads me to the attention and care others are worthy of, but that aspiration to perfection is dependent on my self awareness, and as well I can to the depth of my conscious awareness, I remain truthful in that regard.

My role in life comes with the responsibility that those I encounter be benefited, and never harmed, so I hold a high standard of integrity to ensure this life I live will result in the world being better off, at least in some small way. This, to me, is the higher order of things, so I have little concern for who might or might not be enlightened, and rather, prefer to mingle among kind and honest folk. My talent has been to be free of want, so within my relationships I want nothing from my peers, and we can form relations, professional, personal, counsel/client, or another type, by framing the boundary conditions that define and create the optimum conditions for mutual benefits and happiness.

It is my belief that our respective lives, and the lives of all beings, are also the one life, and at the root of all these expressions of personality and natures there is a unified connection - and there is something well and beyond that gives rise to the propensity to see all things with the utmost purity of love, which is also core in my heart, and yours.

As a person living a life here I have a very small part in the cosmos, but an integral part with the potential to bring metta into all aspects of my day to day so that all whom I encounter are benefited in some way no matter how insignificant that might be - and in ways I don't even know about.

I have to live in the world where everything is worth - time is money, after all, and I have no dispute with that - but I also believe in a higher order of generosity through this self-expression with a heart free of want - and this begins my trust called refuge in the dhamma; my comfort with uncertainty and allowances of nature's way. All I can do from that perspective is be as true to life as I can be though the shadows of ignorance I have. It's not anyone I have imagined and try to be, nor another figure I want to live up to, but an aspiration, none-the-less, for what is actually true.

Gem -

Gem.

JL

Thank you.

[running]

Originally Posted by Gem

For me there is the truth of myself and the truth about myself, so I have no claim of enlightenment or any sort of special person, but as far as I am able I remain self-aware, and where I find my own self judgments, I discern the good qualities from the bad qualities, also understanding the pure and impure aspects of the person who I am. With what we call the 'right effort' I can ameliorate the impure complexes that create suffering in my life and cause misery to others, and I can cultivate my purer virtue that leads me to the attention and care others are worthy of, but that aspiration to perfection is dependent on my self awareness, and as well I can to the depth of my conscious awareness, I remain truthful in that regard.

My role in life comes with the responsibility that those I encounter be benefited, and never harmed, so I hold a high standard of integrity to ensure this life I live will result in the world being better off, at least in some small way. This, to me, is the higher order of things, so I have little concern for who might or might not be enlightened, and rather, prefer to mingle among kind and honest folk. My talent has been to be free of want, so within my relationships I want nothing from my peers, and we can form relations, professional, personal, counsel/client, or another type, by framing the boundary conditions that define and create the optimum conditions for mutual benefits and happiness.

It is my belief that our respective lives, and the lives of all beings, are also the one life, and at the root of all these expressions of personality and natures there is a unified connection - and there is something well and beyond that gives rise to the propensity to see all things with the utmost purity of love, which is also core in my heart, and yours.

As a person living a life here I have a very small part in the cosmos, but an integral part with the potential to bring metta into all aspects of my day to day so that all whom I encounter are benefited in some way no matter how insignificant that might be - and in ways I don't even know about.

I have to live in the world where everything is worth - time is money, after all, and I have no dispute with that - but I also believe in a higher order of generosity through this self-expression with a heart free of want - and this begins my trust called refuge in the dhamma; my comfort with uncertainty and allowances of nature's way. All I can do from that perspective is be as true to life as I can be though the shadows of ignorance I have. It's not anyone I have imagined and try to be, nor another figure I want to live up to, but an aspiration, none-the-less, for what is actually true.

goals are good. goals as a person is good. what is good is a presumption. if it helps someone is a presumption. no matter what one does there are consequences of such. usually going in both directions depending upon how the cookie crumbles. then you have the extremist out do conquer it hardcore. commonly known as do-gooders. sometimes the cookie crumbles in a way to be a whole lot of good compared to bad in the outcomes. other times horrific things happen as a consequence. or some people get hit like a baseball bat across the head with some others as winners. varying degrees carrying more and less weight is what im getting at.

like you i to strive to be a decent person. for me knowing that the only true thing is intentions. cause that is the only thing we actually have any control over. perhaps briefly we look right and rightious. give it time and consequences will arise and views will change. like the lights turned off in a dark room. but intentions never change they are just what they are. and the heart knows them intimately and works on that level. the mind calculates and has presumptions, has opinions, and the consequences which may or may not be what was calculated.

i calculate. i have opinions. i have presumptions. i expect to be wrong a lot. cause everything even when we get it right. is a mixed bag that changes like the wind.

so just sharing my thoughts on the topic. and what i do

[Gem]

Originally Posted by running

goals are good. goals as a person is good. what is good is a presumption. if it helps someone is a presumption. no matter what one does there are consequences of such. usually going in both directions depending upon how the cookie crumbles. then you have the extremist out do conquer it hardcore. commonly known as do-gooders. sometimes the cookie crumbles in a way to be a whole lot of good compared to bad in the outcomes. other times horrific things happen as a consequence. or some people get hit like a baseball bat across the head with some others as winners. varying degrees carrying more and less weight is what im getting at.

like you i to strive to be a decent person. for me knowing that the only true thing is intentions. cause that is the only thing we actually have any control over. perhaps briefly we look right and rightious. give it time and consequences will arise and views will change. like the lights turned off in a dark room. but intentions never change they are just what they are. and the heart knows them intimately and works on that level. the mind calculates and has presumptions, has opinions, and the consequences which may or may not be what was calculated.

i calculate. i have opinions. i have presumptions. i expect to be wrong a lot. cause everything even when we get it right. is a mixed bag that changes like the wind.

so just sharing my thoughts on the topic. and what i do

The intent is a core part of our human life, and in Buddhist philosophy, it is the 'cause' in kammic law. Good-will results in beneficial outcomes, and ill-will in harmful outcomes. The intent held now manifests future outcomes, so our cause and effect is not material, but psychological, all experience being a projection of the mind.


When the meditation progresses to a subtle level that one can feel the vibe in all circumstances, we see how the hard solid world rises from underlying vibrations, and we take care of the ambience we radiate so that the conditions of happiness and well-being arise therefrom.


For those of us working at a grosser level of perception, we don't know what we are doing as we are not conscious of the subtle vibes that render our solid physical experience. And the mind is kept dull by all the reactivity going on at levels we might be unconscious of. People don't know themselves deeply, they are highly distracted from self awareness, and create harmful conditions through their greed and hatred.



In the Buddhist path there are all the 'right' things, including right intention, and the spiritual life begins in the establishing what is right. Morality and living a moral life is the key foundation, and this rests on good-will, and metta can arise as the truth of our hearts, when our one true wish is for the happiness of all living beings.


Our tenets to not speak and act cruelly, to steal, kill, maim, harm, slander, lie, gossip, behave with misconduct and so forth are great guidelines, because to meditate and come to know yourself depends on a moral foundation. We have seen in this thread the end results of spiritual power which is not founded in morality, and the many people who are harmed because of it. These teachers might have touched the void and opened to the beyond, but have not grown up as people.


As a fitness professional, I address the physical body to make it more capable and articulate. This involves laying a foundation of physical stability and mobility, upon which strength can be built, and from there, a person can go on to do things they never imagined they could do. The psychology transforms from 'I can't' to 'I can', and the body stands straighter with this confident poise.



I am able to achieve this because I create the boundaries that define my relationships with the people I assist, so we can cultivate deep trust together, and even deep affection, within well defined bounds that create the right protections so that people can be open, truthful about their lives, and just be. The boundaries create the safe place which give rise to the 'right' conditions that manifest in untold benefits. It all about 'drawing the line' where some interactions are acceptable and allowed, and other interactions are definitely out of bounds! Hence, I wouldn't go philandering with my clientele and more that I would steal their watch, or in any other way, disrupt the arena in which we cultivate trust.



The spiritual teachers who do not understand these things are dangerous people. Morality is not just a subjective opinion. Ethics are derived from the virtues which are universal, the love of all things, the truth... and we don't get to make that stuff up to suit ourselves because it stems not from an individual, but the real living connection that unites all things.