Flowing like water

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

That 'wise man' was Bruce Lee, was it not?

Its worth noting that Bruce was the apitamy of adaption - he took everything from every style & put it into his own teaching.

.

Originally Posted by Raziel

Its worth noting that Bruce was the apitamy of adaption - he took everything from every style & put it into his own teaching.

.

Yes he was and yes he did. What he also said was that fighting in patterns gave no room for creativity, and worse still it made the fighter predictable and therefore vulnerable.

There are 'lessons' there for Spirituality.

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Greenslade

Yes he was and yes he did. What he also said was that fighting in patterns gave no room for creativity, and worse still it made the fighter predictable and therefore vulnerable.

There are 'lessons' there for Spirituality.

In some ways Jeet kune Do was indeed inspirational to me personally in how I approach the spiritual side of things.

In 1993 when the autobiographical film was released there was no MMA or UFC to speak of therefore - the concept of adapting, taking in what is relevant & letting go of what does not work was a very novel concept to a 10 year old schoolboy.

It made me an inbetweener and proud.

[Rain95]

The opposite of holding on is not letting go, it's the lack of a doer, the one that holds on or lets go... when that is absent one has awakened.

Surrender is not a willful act, it's an empty and clear and free open heart. It's not something you do, it's something you are.

[Raziel]

Clean up on isle one please - double post ..

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Rain95

The opposite of holding on is not letting go, it's the lack of a doer, the one that holds on or lets go...

This part makes no sense to me could you explain further?

What you describe here is the same action. Holding on means not letting go surely?

Genuine question BTW.

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by Raziel

This part makes no sense to me could you explain further?

What you describe here is the same action. Holding on means not letting go surely?

Genuine question BTW.

I don't think it is something that can be understood intellectually in any real sense. It reminds me of how people approach the idea of mindfulness or what some call "not thinking." Mindfulness is not having any direction at all in some sense but being very focused and with a direction in another. It's a surrender or letting go of the "self" that is thought based. Any thought, for or against, pro or con, is absent as an authority in the moment. No authority is there except the one who is absent of authority or person. Yet they are fully a person. Yea I'm not sure it can be put in words. You kinda try to point out what it is but someone has to have some experiences with these things to know what y0u are talking about.

Like if somebody tries to have no thoughts, it takes awhile and struggling to find that state of freedom..one finds the one trying is thought, there is mental activity revolving around thoughts that are trying to have no thought....letting go or surrender happens in a way.... but it's not willful it's from seeing or an insight in what is actually there.... once what is there is seen one is above it in a sense. So it's not a doing. it's a seeing. It's the absence of a doer. One becomes aware of all the subtle ways one is identifying with thoughts in the moment.

In one sense holding on is not letting go, but it's kind of a surface thing and not really on deeper levels. There is always a "subject" or object in these sentences, the self...the one who is the doer..... this doer is made up or constructed from thoughts. but it doesn't have to be. It can have no self identity based on thoughts as a human potential. It is rare and of limited duration, but one can experience being selfless, nothing, a nobody, without opinions, or ideas, or thoughts, or judgement. Being quiet within and without. One has to discard all internal and external authority, then an order is there from that awake seeing necessary to be internally empty. It takes a very high degree of self awareness.

It's what many religious seek and few find. One has a few moments here and there and gets a small taste of it, but it comes and goes. I guess it exists in varying degrees in people.

Like that term "open minded." It means somebody who is willing or able to look past their own opinions and beliefs. Way down the line of that scale from close minded to open minded....keep going down that line past open minded... to somebody who has let go of all personal self.... no opinions or beliefs or self that come forth from thought. But then such beings still live in a human body and that point of perspective is there... so the idea or experience of freedom may never fully come until the consciousness leaves the body.

I think a lot of teachers have caught some glimpses of the potential, but it is never fully realized in my opinion while in a body. But one can become very selfless, humble, peaceful within and without.... that is doable.

So I was trying to explain how the opposite of holding on was not letting go....if they both involve making this moment about the imaginary self that is thought based. That kind of letting go is not expansive and it does not result in inner profound peace and quiet. But then if the letting go involves complete freedom from the "noise in your head," it has come about from self awareness and so one is free and so has "let go.'

It's really a problem with language. Every word or sentence has at least two meanings. If somebody says, "I have let go," who or what are they referring to as that self or "I?" Then this "I" let go of what and how? One "how" involves effort and doing and will power, but yea it fits one definition and meaning for the words. But then one can also "let go" without effort or will power or any doer or doing. One just is aware in the moment and enters in a relationship with now without all the baggage of the "self" produced by memory and thought.

If I asked someone who they were, one person could say, I am Joe, I love Italian food, I am a Democrat or a Republican, I am Native American and Irish, I believe in this and that.... my favorite color is blue. They would not be lying and that is all true on one level. But then another person may answer, all of that is my conditioning and not true. I am none of that. That's true too.

What we are in any given moment is up to us or maybe it's not. One can only open a door if one is aware it is there. We are not always aware of the doors.

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Rain95

I don't think it is something that can be understood intellectually in any real sense. It reminds me of how people approach the idea of mindfulness or what some call "not thinking." Mindfulness is not having any direction at all in some sense but being very focused and with a direction in another. It's a surrender or letting go of the "self" that is thought based. Any thought, for or against, pro or con, is absent as an authority in the moment. No authority is there except the one who is absent of authority or person. Yet they are fully a person. Yea I'm not sure it can be put in words. You kinda try to point out what it is but someone has to have some experiences with these things to know what y0u are talking about.

Like if somebody tries to have no thoughts, it takes awhile and struggling to find that state of freedom..one finds the one trying is thought, there is mental activity revolving around thoughts that are trying to have no thought....letting go or surrender happens in a way.... but it's not willful it's from seeing or an insight in what is actually there.... once what is there is seen one is above it in a sense. So it's not a doing. it's a seeing. It's the absence of a doer. One becomes aware of all the subtle ways one is identifying with thoughts in the moment.

In one sense holding on is not letting go, but it's kind of a surface thing and not really on deeper levels. There is always a "subject" or object in these sentences, the self...the one who is the doer..... this doer is made up or constructed from thoughts. but it doesn't have to be. It can have no self identity based on thoughts as a human potential. It is rare and of limited duration, but one can experience being selfless, nothing, a nobody, without opinions, or ideas, or thoughts, or judgement. Being quiet within and without. One has to discard all internal and external authority, then an order is there from that awake seeing necessary to be internally empty. It takes a very high degree of self awareness.

It's what many religious seek and few find. One has a few moments here and there and gets a small taste of it, but it comes and goes. I guess it exists in varying degrees in people.

Like that term "open minded." It means somebody who is willing or able to look past their own opinions and beliefs. Way down the line of that scale from close minded to open minded....keep going down that line past open minded... to somebody who has let go of all personal self.... no opinions or beliefs or self that come forth from thought. But then such beings still live in a human body and that point of perspective is there... so the idea or experience of freedom may never fully come until the consciousness leaves the body.

I think a lot of teachers have caught some glimpses of the potential, but it is never fully realized in my opinion while in a body. But one can become very selfless, humble, peaceful within and without.... that is doable.

So I was trying to explain how the opposite of holding on was not letting go....if they both involve making this moment about the imaginary self that is thought based. That kind of letting go is not expansive and it does not result in inner profound peace and quiet. But then if the letting go involves complete freedom from the "noise in your head," it has come about from self awareness and so one is free and so has "let go.'

It's really a problem with language. Every word or sentence has at least two meanings. If somebody says, "I have let go," who or what are they referring to as that self or "I?" Then this "I" let go of what and how? One "how" involves effort and doing and will power, but yea it fits one definition and meaning for the words. But then one can also "let go" without effort or will power or any doer or doing. One just is aware in the moment and enters in a relationship with now without all the baggage of the "self" produced by memory and thought.

If I asked someone who they were, one person could say, I am Joe, I love Italian food, I am a Democrat or a Republican, I am Native American and Irish, I believe in this and that.... my favorite color is blue. They would not be lying and that is all true on one level. But then another person may answer, all of that is my conditioning and not true. I am none of that. That's true too.

What we are in any given moment is up to us or maybe it's not. One can only open a door if one is aware it is there. We are not always aware of the doors.

Ha ha so it's very zen ...

Pupil: "master what is the meaning of life .. "
Master responds by flicking the pupil on the nose ...

It's the Marmite of spirituality! (you either love it or hate it.)
.

[SkyGodWarrior]

:)
NIce to see that a idea planted such a debate.

It took me a while to understand what letting go or surrendering even meant. Finally I understand and feel that I can answer proficiently...

Letting go.... it just depends on what context or subject of this is... I think to give one a good idea... try this... think of a time you were really happy and excited for something. See how that this feels...... and now think of a time where you were angry or sad or afraid..... which spectrum of emotions do you really feel? For me it was anger, sadness, and lack... I would be able to feel these emotions strongly. When one lives a life no matter where they are at or what they may have there will always be a emotional connection. Through the emotional connection these bridge the gap between this physical universe and the etheric plane.

In other words.. a person can still carry the emotional burdens of the past causing them to still think or act in those similar patterns.... To let go would be to consciously release these emotions to free your self of these burdens. Im sure there are many ways to do this but I think the non metaphysical way would be through psychology.... there one would fish for the root of the problem at hand and essentially build up to making a change....

Metaphysically one can call upon the guides, angels and beings of light and love to help release these burdens.... I should refrain from burdens as they imply something but in reality nothing is either bad or good... what happens happened for a reason even if it was very horrible... what one must learn is what one must experience if they need to understand it. Anyways after one releases these emotions they are free from them in the essences that these emotions dont have the same weight if any as they did before. A thought back into a memory of anger, fear or etc does not carry the emotions that binds one to its image or experience. When you are able to decided and be who you want to be this is true freedom.

To surrender could be mixed and interchanged with letting go.... but I think in general it is used as a understanding of not being tied up in emotions over everything or a specific thing that you have surrendered. So for instance I surrender feeling lack when I went to the store. Even though I had money i would always cringe when I went to the shopping counter. After surrendering this fear would not be there.... another way would be to understand that you cannot control everything and things will fall in place as they go and to be okay and in harmony with that.

At first it is scary... but eventually you will not worry at all and be having fun if anything as things unfold...

I think people may have a problem with this because it implies that one is free to create and do as they want.... it implies infinite abundance... in a world of limitations this is the thing that is attacked most... you cannot love this.. or that because of this or that... you cant have this or that because you dont deserve this or that....

who is to say that what is.. isnt or what is is..?

Originally Posted by Raziel

In some ways Jeet kune Do was indeed inspirational to me personally in how I approach the spiritual side of things.

In 1993 when the autobiographical film was released there was no MMA or UFC to speak of therefore - the concept of adapting, taking in what is relevant & letting go of what does not work was a very novel concept to a 10 year old schoolboy.

It made me an inbetweener and proud.

At the time his movies were becoming popular I'd just started martial arts training and was a very angry young man. In part I found my way into Spirituality partly because of him, he was my role model at that time. I resonated deeply with his fighting techniques at that time because I was anti-establishment. Anti-everything pretty much.

Sometimes it's good to remember where you've come from because it gives you a better understanding of where you're going to. To the outer reaches where the in-crowds fear to tread again. Ho hum, here we go.