Is suffering real ? Is love, joy real?

[Miss Hepburn]

Thought provoking post, I thought, in Spirituality in the Suffering thread:
https://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/s...4&postcount=25

A question for the non-duality crowd.

Suffering - illusion or not? Love, joy - Illusion or not?

Like the chair you're looking at, it is real and yet it is not...the dream we are living in is real and yet it is not.
The dream you have when sleeping is real and yet it is not.

What seems to me as real are feelings...the feelings in the sleeping dream of terror or of love are real...we FEEL them.
But what of the surroundings...we 'feel' real sadness watching a war movie on a big screen...was the war real? Our feelings were.

The person we love, is that person real? The love was/is, to ME, anyway.
Discuss?

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

Suffering - illusion or not? Love, joy - Illusion or not?

In philosophy 'real' means lasting -self sustaining . In that sense neither suffering not love/joy are real . Buddha has written lot on suffering like

“Everything is Temporary,Everything is Unpleasant,
Everything is of its own Nature,
Everything is Void.”

Lot of people deduce from this that life is suffering according to Buddha because every good thing is temporary with an end in suffering . But here people make misunderstanding Buddha and doing injustice to Him . He says everything is momentary (including even suffering) . So after suffering there can be happiness or even joy also and He does not deny happiness/joy in anyway.

Coming to transcending the rabit hole of 'suffering/joy' -
1. Have firm conviction that even Buddha say/mean life can be joy just like suffering.
2. In psychology negation simply does not work . If you want experience joy , genuinely believe life is a blessing , life experience is blissful and exciting , purify/sublimate thoughts , bring harmony in thoughts,speeches and actions, do small charitable acts slowly yet consistently (not turning blind eye to sufferings of others too is ok ) and firmly with conviction .
3. When your consciousness is steeped in all these all the time , it has no time for suffering and suffering shall vanish .

[God-Like]

We have to get the foundation sorted primarily otherwise there isn't any firm ground to build upon such notions.

Even the belief in
'If philosophy 'real' means lasting -self sustaining . In that sense neither suffering not love/joy are real' .

This has to entertain a reality where such concepts are conceptual true. You can't have a true representation and it not be real environment to sustain them.

If nothing is real and everything is an illusion or a dream, and no-one is actually here then nothing said or done or experienced holds any real weight.

What you get at times is a belief to be held to be true that doesn't reflect one's actions.

This is why getting the core foundation right is necessary.

x daz x

[FallingLeaves]

well in some sense I can't pin down what is real and what isn't... best I can do is buy into one of the common beliefs other people have told me about. And then proclaim that THAT is real without any more backing than I have for anything else and build on that.

But what, is it turtles all the way down?

OTOH suffering is only bad because of the distance it makes you go away from others...

anyway just for fun, on feelings, one of the stories i heard is that all this running around i do, trying to make things 'look right' or trying to figure out how things look in some objective sense or trying to figure out my 'place' in some 'tapestry'....

all of this is a heavy investment in visual things, which I strongly want to do because I perceive that others are doing it...

Unfortunately when I start dealing with the visual reality I get into the concept of 'wave guides' to guide the lights... in the physical sense wave guides (as we are accustomed to making them) don't change very much with time. So they are very low frequency in terms of physicality.

And that is where the story gets interesting for me... if I flop the primary concept from 'visuality' to 'physicality' (which I take my interactions with physicality to be in the form of 'feelings') and then start rereading everything I got from books before with that context in mind, I 'get' for example that 'high' would be a physicality that moves (or vibrates) rapidly and 'low' would be a physicality that moves (or vibrates) slowly. But this is just the opposite of what everyone is teaching me, i should want the visual reality to move faster which means I have to make the physical reality move slower???? What?????

another wrinkle is that I've found that most of the ways of getting to faster physicality/feelings are looked down upon by societies world wide... and getting to faster lights is pretty much admired world wide lol... so if I want to call THIS story real I'd be going against pretty much everyone's desires to be able to pursue it...

I mean even just looking at something like buddhism, they've got a very strong prohibition against suffering. but if I look at suffering as a way toward a faster physicality I start wondering, do they really know the things they say they know? Or is it just more of the blind leading the blind? only on a grander scale than you get secularly?

And the whole world is like that, every group has got some desire for what this place has to be and how I must listen to them about what that is and then relate to it 'properly' according to their beliefs on how to go about that...

and you can't join a group unless you buy into their beliefs on such things...

I'd be just as glad if physicality won this fight over visuality just so I didn't have to listen to all this bickering any more sigh...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
But back to the original thought, how does one really decide what is real, and what isn't?

My own stance on that is I don't. Trying to figure out the one true meaning about life for whatever reason I want to give myself for it today seems just oh so dull any more...

[Unseeking Seeker]

My take on this is, let us take everything as real, even our dreams. We feel it, it is real, for all practical purposes.

Joy and pain, these sensations come and go, they oscillate. We desire joy and have aversion for pain, that’s natural, we accept our natural inclinations, the urge to expand rather than to contract, diminish.

So, about suffering. In my view, suffering is simply the non-acceptance, the denial of pain. We amplify pain by reinforcing thoughts around it. That becomes suffering.

Ultimately, freedom lies in Ramana’s Inquiry, ‘who am I?’. Actually all paths of spiritual inquiry ask the same question, the routes employed are different, ultimately, the answer is revealed in thought rested stillness. Why? Because where thought is not, ego is not. When ego or identity recedes, our eternal awareness or consciousness or Self, whatever we call it, it becomes visible to our inner sight. Ego is the veil, that is to say, the belief that we are only mind-body is the hindrance. Thus there is nothing to be done, except to let go off all concepts, totally and rest in silence.

We may say that if we do not know the truth of our being, we are attached to cravings of body-mind and then suffering is inevitable. Repressing it, suppressing, even sublimation does not help, since these are mind games. We cannot use mind to transcend mind. Hence silence is the way or we may say, meditation. Living internally, mindfully, gentling touch, moment to moment to moment.

Once we know we are not this but that, living light eternal, we then know in definitiveness, a certainty free from doubt, the truth of our being. Then we become peaceful, blissful, acceptant, growing in love and compassion, seeing life for what it is, a lucid dream and thus are nonchalant to outcomes. But until then …

[Redchic12]

Is suffering real? Well it’s certainly real enough when you’re going thru it isn’t it. But is it real when you look at the “big picture”, well who knows.

From my experience, the only thing that reduced suffering for me was learning how to control your thoughts, ie no thoughts, no problems. In my view, a problem doesn’t exist if you dont have thoughts about it.

Yeah I know, it sounds pretty simplistic and easy but of course it isn’t. It’s taken me years to get to the place where I am at right now, but I can say in all honesty that it has been worth the time and energy that I have put into it over the years because I now have very little suffering in my life.

However, life isn’t just black and white like that and there are times when you are in the middle of losing a child, watching someone you love, dying slowly etc and I guess it’s a whole new scenario where nothing you can say or think will help the pain.

Just my thoughts tho.

[Ewwerrin]

For the sake of conversation. We can talk about oneness. But it would oppose twoness. The word "Wholeness" does a better job to include both, neither, and all the above.

Our emotions are indicators of the more full realness that we are.
That is getting evermore and ever more real.
It is a vital guidance mechanism.

It can be an issue if human believes false information. Such as, "If it hurts more, it is more real."

The complete opposite is true. But that doesn't mean that believing the extreme opposite of truth has no consequences.

When your soul is aware of something, and you are not, instant negative emotion arises, because you always have acces to the perspective of your greater being.

And the worse you feel, the more available the joy of truth and reality is for you.

But we are able to believe the lie to compounding degrees, just like we can know the truth to compounding degrees.

And yet, the truth is irresistable. So the ultimate truth is that the lie can in actual fact not truely be believed in. It may appear to one that they are believing in the lie. But the negative emotion gives the truth away. And if one doesn't know that, then they suffer the very blessing they are unintentionally pushing away. So a good thing to remember is that all innocence is absolute and eternal. Nothing I say exists for any redemption whatsoever. You are always already perfect.

Negative emotion is like the wrapping paper around the gift of truth. If you don't realise it yourself (unwrap it), everyone else around you can bring it to your attention. And the physical time and space reality also does that. It notifies you even when there are no humans around. Infact, more clearly when there are no humans around.

And why is that? Because the manifestational indicator of time and space reality is the last resort. And the negative emotion should and IS a big enough of a messenger of truth.

Infact, your emotions can cause so much suffering that even time and space reality can no longer be perceived properly. The messenger of your emotions can do SUCH a good job of notifying you about the false/flawed perspective you have.

No one can unwrap the wrapping paper (negative emotion) for you, by force. They can only offer you to look at the truth, but they can't force you to. And your truth cannot be owned by anyone else but yourself. No one can steal it from you, but no one can force you to look at it either.

Other people can read the very real and specific subtleties of your emotions and its undeniability. And see the absolute core joyfulness of your being, possibly even more so than you can do so for yourself in any given moment. But that is because your soul is real and it is always now.

So it only seems like someone else can bring your soul to your attention, but its always you and your focus. But humans are weird like that. ok... So truth is, you are always notified yourself first, before any human can or needs or will notify you.

So if you embrace the messenger of your emotions, you always have acces to God Source Perspective, which is the energy which creates worlds, which is the evermore and ever more realness of all ever expanding realness that is being and becoming ever more real.

And to be more precise, for the obvious sake of nonduality. You and All are simply being evermore the realness of that which you truely are, without needing to become anything.

So you can experience any reality you so desire. And you will always be free to do so.

However... That does not mean that you can cement a false reality. Your desire is the desire of God Source.

To clarify all this. Any random example can be helpful.
So lets say something has happened. And you feel bad about it. Why? Because you have a perspective that is different from the greater knowing of god source. But more specifically why. What is the actual thought/perspective/believe you have about the event?
"I expected this, and the complete opposite happened. And now I feel bad, because I don't want the opposite to what I want to happen!"

So here in this example you would be giving attention to what you don't want. And remembering that whatever you give your attention to, becomes reality. And so, God Source NEVER EVER gives attention to what you don't want. And if you do, you feel the negative emotion of doing so. Not because it is more real, but because it in actual fact cannot become more real! God Source does not even back it up!

So what is the solution? To enjoy what you do want. You appreciate the negative emotion, letting you know "hey! There is something you want here!"

So what do I want in this example? "I want what I want to have happened. I want what I want to be supported by God Source." So now we are focused on what we DO want, in this example. And the evidence would be a lifting of negative emotion, a feeling of relief and more feelings of positive emotion. Why? Because God Source is already focused there for you. It always will hold what you do want in focus for you, even if you don't.

And so, you give it your attention. "I want this. And this. and this. Oh, and I would really enjoy if it is like this. And this." And you feel better and better the more attention you give to what you DO want. As opposed to what you don't want.

And the reason is simple. God Source is already focused there for you. It always is already always focused on what you do want. And if you join all that powerful energy, line up with it and enjoy it, you are aligning with the unconditional love of God Source. You open the door and flood gates to what you do want. And it feels like positive emotion, because you are harmonising and resonating with God Source and your desire that it is focused upon, on your behalf.

Always ready for you to embrace the desire that you have. To allow it to come into full manifestational time and space realisation. To allow the evermoreness of the realness that you are.

And if you don't? The irresistability of your ever expanding truth is always infinitely more powerful that any resistance oneself can muster. You are always ment to feel good. All of the time. Under any and all conditions and regardless of any and all conditions. Unconditionally. You have the ability to realise what you DO want.

And it will become a reality wether you want it "or not". Because you can't actually not want it. That is the whole point of all of it. Your soul may actually know better what you want than you yourself do. That is why you are cocreating your reality with your soul. But the magic really happens when you join the greater knowing of your own soul.

And negative emotion is actually the same unconditionally joyful energy of positive emotion. Negative emotion just means that the energy of who you truely are, unconditional joy, is simply flowing through negative believes/thoughts/perspective. So it's still your own energy, but flowing through energetically resistant thought patterns. Such as thoughts about what you don't want.

There is nothing wrong with that. You can shift a negative emotion around into a positive emotion in mere seconds. You simply realise you are focused on what you don't want and then you give your attention to what you do want. And then you feel positive emotion again.

So obviously, the better you feel, the more truth you are allowing to flow through you. And the more negative emotion, the more you are resisting the truth to flow more freely and unhindered through you.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Just like if you fall down or trip, you don't all of the sudden insist that you can't get back up and lie there for ever. Infact, negative emotion is even more simple than getting back up. It does not even require a physical action. A mere thought about and attention towards what you DO want, as opposed to what you don't want. And the negative emotion vanishes. Because it has served its purpose.

And the universe is infinitely efficient and precise.

[HITESH SHAH]

Originally Posted by God-Like

We have to get the foundation sorted primarily otherwise there isn't any firm ground to build upon such notions.

Every science / discipline / art has its terminologies and symbologies . So does spirituality.In order to benefit from it , it is imperative we understand it rightly.

Spirituality is the science of God , His vision and revelations . There are lot of foundations of the same in the scriptures of worldly religions . They express the same truths , laws and axioms in using different language/words . What I am writing here is my understanding of the same only and nothing is my own.
e.g. following quotes talks of transient temporal nature of life.

John 2:17
The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever

Corinthians 4:18
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful

Matthew 6:30
But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!

Just like any other discipline /science , spirituality too acts on individual / peoples experiences over a period . For the sincere seeker the overall experience improvement itself is bigger reward . However the side effect of it is that we undergo better experiences in terms of social status, knowledge,power,relationships ,health ,wealth etc . It's result cycle may be long many a times lasting a decade.

[Ewwerrin]

The will of God and your will are one. And whatever you do not want, becomes part of "the passing world."

[Goldcup7]

It's a good question, a bit like: to be or not to be. What is real? Well, there is only reality. What is not real is how we label and conceptualise things. The Non Dual understanding is that there are not many finite things. There is only reality, which can be understood as a singularity, or What Is.

This singularity is love itself. The human love we experience is an expression of the true oneness of the wholeness of unmanifest being. When we feel close to another or compassion for others, the love we feel is the closeness to the true nature of being one. Joy or peace is also the nature of oneness, as it is complete and unmoving. Perfect peace.

Suffering is experienced by the apparent finite beings, whose dense forms clash with other dense forms in the play of opposites and separation that is the manifest world. Finite beings are incomplete and so inevitably feel a sense of lack. The opposites of love and peace are experienced in the world of opposites as hate and suffering. These are not the truth, but reflections of the true nature of oneness.

The true nature and the true reality, of course, is that there is never separation and there never are separate beings. There is only one, an infinite one that is numberless. That which is.