The Truth Trap.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Namaste.

After getting past the whole confusion the modern world displays in regards to what is 'true news' and what is 'fake news' I had an epiphany.

Any truth apart from the ultimate Truth (Brahman) is subjective and relative. If it were not so, there wouldn't be so many damned versions of it, with each claiming their 'truth' to be 'true'.

I could say that my 'truth' is 'true' and have somebody else say that I am a 'liar'...to which I would merely reply 'personal opinion =/= fact either way' and we still are none the wiser as to the role the Russians played in the US presidential election or if any phones were tapped...

With the advent of 'alternate facts/truths' regarding what may or may not be so pertaining to just about anything these days, I was left in a state of total confusion as to what is the truth and who is telling it? One could pull their hair out or go crazy trying to find the answer to that one, because whatever set of statistics you find, there will always...always be another set of statistics from another 'reputable source' showing exactly the opposite trend has occurred...e.g climate change.

Yes, at first I was confused about who is 'telling the truth' here, until I realised that nobody is because the Truth cannot be told. All of these people just believing whatever makes them happy and being entitled to believe whatever they want to, meant that nobody else could ever say squat about it, even if, they themselves exercised their entitlement to disbelieve, based on whatever piece of evidence they found which suited their beliefs and agendas.

Yes, at first I was confused...but then I was happy that there was a reason why this was happening - to blatantly illustrate the whole point and purpose that opposed to an 'ultimate Truth (Brahman)' any human concept of truth is just another lie, no matter how it is dressed up.

Carrying duality to the max only goes to show and expose the whole non-duality of the entire scenario and human condition.

Should you lose your "Brahman is the only truth", and are unable to replace it with another, there will always be resonance which may resolve whatever questions may be challenging you. The mind does not require to first establish that a possible solution is true unless it has been conditioned to believe that any solutions it considers MUST be the truth. Without that impossible burden, mind is free to resonate with whatever it feels may work for the character it constructed, serves, and knows well.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Iamit

Should you lose your "Brahman is the only truth", and are unable to replace it with another, there will always be resonance which may resolve whatever questions may be challenging you. The mind does not require to first establish that a possible solution is true unless it has been conditioned to believe that any solutions it considers MUST be the truth. Without that impossible burden, mind is free to resonate with whatever it feels may work for the character it constructed, serves, and knows well.

It is all a matter of perception.

When faced with the ultimate Truth, all challenging questions will automatically be answered...or no challenging questions will arise in the first place. There is no requirement.

The mind is always conditioned to seek truth as opposed to being somewhat ignorant about it - but Brahman and non-duality transcends any mental attribute - constructed, conditioned or otherwise.

'The Truth will set you free' - it is the difference between experiencing what the Truth is and whatever we merely believe it to be.

Maybe we're saying the same thing in different ways...I am getting this distinct impression...

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

It is all a matter of perception.

When faced with the ultimate Truth, all challenging questions will automatically be answered...or no challenging questions will arise in the first place. There is no requirement.

The mind is always conditioned to seek truth as opposed to being somewhat ignorant about it - but Brahman and non-duality transcends any mental attribute - constructed, conditioned or otherwise.

'The Truth will set you free' - it is the difference between experiencing what the Truth is and whatever we merely believe it to be.

Maybe we're saying the same thing in different ways...I am getting this distinct impression...

If the idea of an ultimate truth works for you then why not go with that! The problem may arise (and usually does) however that something hidden may crawl out of a hedge (see Soren Kierkegaard fable of The Highwayman) or elsewhere that contradicts that truth. What do you do then? Do you hang on in there and defend your truth to the hilt, perhaps ignoring or misrepresenting the challenge to undermine it, or do you have a crisis that results in you giving up that truth and get thrust back into the state of desparately wanting to know the truth but knowing you dont have it? On and on that cycle may go.

To avoid that trap it may be seen that there could always be somthing hidden to contradict what is held to be the truth. Lets say that is eventually seen, perhaps after many crises, the seeker is then in a most advantageous position for the mind is now free to resonate with a solution without having to first establish that the solution is true, for the idea that one can know the truth has been trancended.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

...
Any truth apart from the ultimate Truth (Brahman) is subjective and relative. ...

But since that isn't true from my perspective and the perspective of many others it must be an expression of your subjective and relative perspective.
Of course there may be others that agree with your view since they share your belief. That then only shows that if the subjective and relative perspective of one individual represents an agreement of view among a group of individuals that doesn't transform the subjective and relative perspective into an objective and ultimate truth but that transform the individually subjective and relative perspective into an inter-individually conventional and relative perspective still being subjective from the perspective of the individual.
There are many different communities of believers that all claim different truth(s) and there are even more individuals that all claim different truth(s). Whether they call it 'ultimate' of not does not make a difference since belief is belief.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Ground

But since that isn't true from my perspective and the perspective of many others it must be an expression of your subjective and relative perspective.
Of course there may be others that agree with your view since they share your belief. That then only shows that if the subjective and relative perspective of one individual represents an agreement of view among a group of individuals that doesn't transform the subjective and relative perspective into an objective and ultimate truth but that transform the individually subjective and relative perspective into an inter-individually conventional and relative perspective still being subjective from the perspective of the individual.
There are many different communities of believers that all claim their truth(s) and there are even more individuals that claim their truth(s).

Except that any truth which can be believed or claimed, is not the ultimate Truth - Brahmanic Truth goes way beyond any 'belief' in it. It is a Truth born from direct experience with/of it.

If the experience isn't had, the Truth isn't known and while there are people out there who won't believe that, it makes no difference to the way things are in the non-dual, Advaitic sense.

It's totally impersonal and beyond all concepts of a personal or subjective/relative truth.

Any truth which can be intellectualised...claimed...discussed...explained ...isn't it.

It is akin to God, and I don't have to believe 'my truth' is true, because it's just the way it is.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Except that any truth which can be believed or claimed, is not the ultimate Truth - Brahmanic Truth goes way beyond any 'belief' in it. It is a Truth born from direct experience with/of it.

Well what is this other than your mere belief?

See of course you do have experiences but belief starts where you do impute conceptual interpretations and take those to be true.

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Any truth which can be intellectualised...claimed...discussed...explained ...isn't it.

So the truth you're claiming isn't 'it'. Now the question is, what then is 'it'? And whatever you'd like to answer, it won't be true but if you insist that it be true then it's mere belief.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Ground

Well what is this other than your mere belief?

See of course you do have experiences but belief starts where you do impute conceptual interpretations and take those to be true.


So the truth you're claiming isn't 'it'. Now the question is, what then is 'it'? And whatever you'd like to answer, it won't be true but if you insist that it be true then it's mere belief.

It is the total experience of actual non-duality where there is no 'believer' and nothing to be 'believed in' because it is Sat and Sat = Truth.

It is also Chid and Chid means pure consciousness.

It is Ananda and Ananda is the resulting bliss that occurs after the direct realisation of Sat.

It is That which fits in with the whole premise of this section of the forum as being equatable to such topics/discussion of Non-duality.

If you are coming at it from the Dualist viewpoint, which you are, it is not surprising that you just won't 'get it'.

It is the whole essence of non-dual thought, but even that, in itself is contradictory because the Advaitins are seeking to explain a 'truth' which is beyond explanation.

This is why the term "Vedanta" was coined...Vedanta means 'the end of the Vedas...the end of Jnana...or end of knowledge'.

It is the point where we can think, conceptualise and believe no more...everything up to that point has been Mithya...Mithya is the origin of the English word, myth...or 'false perception'...it is a lie because Brahman alone exists and Brahman = Sat.

Those who have not experienced it may call it 'my belief' but that is still part of dvaita.....mithya...it is still part of that which isn't true.

That's all I can say about it.

[Ground]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

...
Those who have not experienced it may call it 'my belief' but that is still part of dvaita.....mithya...it is still part of that which isn't true.

If you say that what you say isn't true then we actually agree. And even your experience isn't true. If you experience a sentiment of truth in the context of what you call your experience then that is called 'the truth trap' (title of this thread).
To say 'it is still part of that which isn't true' is inappropriate because there isn't another part which is true. It is all just your saying and thinking this or that and all that isn't true. All that arises only through your saying and thinking it.
People feel that when they call something 'ultimate' or 'absolute' what they call so is beyond their just saying and thinking 'ultimate' or 'absolute'. But of course they can't escape their merely saying and thinking it.
In the same vein you may say thousands of times that it is only experience that hints at truth but not your words and still this is just what you are saying and thinking. There is no truth. A sentiment of truth arises only if you believe that your mere saying and thinking would exist independent of your saying and thinking.

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

That's all I can say about it.

you could say very much more. Human creativity is limitless.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Ground

If you say that what you say isn't true then we actually agree. And even your experience isn't true. If you experience a sentiment of truth in the context of what you call your experience then that is called 'the truth trap' (title of this thread).
To say 'it is still part of that which isn't true' is inappropriate because there isn't another part which is true. It is all just your saying and thinking this or that and all that isn't true. All that arises only through your saying and thinking it.
People feel that when they call something 'ultimate' or 'absolute' what they call so is beyond their just saying and thinking 'ultimate' or 'absolute'. But of course they can't escape their merely saying and thinking it.
In the same vein you may say thousands of times that it is only experience that hints at truth but not your words and still this is just what you are saying and thinking. There is no truth. A sentiment of truth arises only if you believe that your mere saying and thinking would exist independent of your saying and thinking.


you could say very much more. Human creativity is limitless.

Philosophically speaking, to say it 'isn't true' is really just the same as saying it 'is true'...both are a trap.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Philosophically speaking, to say it 'isn't true' is really just the same as saying it 'is true'...both are a trap.

TRUE!

:):)