Satchitananda

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

I was hoping to ask you a question about Shaivism, I was going to go to the Shiva forum link that you put up but I don't want to be assailed lol. I hope nobody minds me using this thread to ask the question.

I don't know alot about Shiva or Shaivism, if anything at all. I've come across the term Kashmir Shaivism and wonder how it is distinct from other forms if it is at all. But my question was to do with language and sound. How does Shaivism see language and sound in terms of life itself and the universe ? I thought i heard someone say that Shaivism believes the Sound or Song is behind the universe or is the universe ? Would you mind saying something about this necromancer if possible ? Thank you very much.

No problem. Glad to oblige.

Your question is a multiple one - it has a lot of answers that need addressing.

The 'Sound' or 'Song' of the universe is represented by the eternal AUM or cosmic vibration which underlies the frequency of atoms. This is represented by the Damaru or the kettle drum which Shiva holds. AUM is the non-dual experience of a Divine Logos and is associated with the omnipotent and transcendental form of Shiva, known as Sadashiva or Bhairava.

I prefer to understand that what is behind the whole universe, is the "Dance of Shiva" known as the Tandavam. This is represented by Lord Shiva in 'dance mode' - dancing to the beat of the Damaru...the AUM...transmuting energy into action or will through Maya Shakti or effulgence. This form of Shiva is called Nataraja.

The difference between Kashmir Shaivism, Virashaivism and other schools, is that in Kashmir Shaivism and Virashaivism, Shiva is totally equatable with Brahman in the Nirupa rupa or the "formless form" and can be realised through direct experience of the union of Shiva and Shakti, by way of Tantra and Tantrik practice. This form of Shiva/Shakti - potential energy and manifest energies combined, is called Ardhanarishwara. The realisation of the union of Shiva and Shakti, or the duality of experience, leads one into that non-dual experience of Satchitananda, in which the experiencer understands that "I am" or "I am Shiva"...there is no differentiation between 'self' and Shiva. In Virashaivism, this 'formless form' is represented by the Shiva Lingam or Jyotir Lingam - The 'mark of Shiva' or the "illumunated mark of Shiva".

In the other schools, the Puranic schools of Shaiva thought (with which I am more associated), Shiva is seen as existing in a Saguna form, or with a certain aspects and Divine attribute. It is a more dualistic approach, because there is subject - individual self/soul (atman) and also the absolute soul (paramatman). There is still the distinction there between worshiper and that which is worshiped...or devotee and object of devotion. These schools operate more along the lines of "I cannot be Shiva, because Shiva is Shiva"...and it presents itself most often through Bhakti Yoga, which is 'the Union through Love' more than Jnana Yoga which is 'Union through Knowledge...however, in some cases, the union through love can cause the devotee to experience Shiva as being who they really are anyway.

It is a case of "I am Shiva" or "everything is Brahman/Bhairava" vs "Shiva is in my heart, but I am still separate from Shiva through my awareness of Shiva".

This is the difference and I hoped that I explained it to your satisfaction, but please feel free to ask more questions if the need arises.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

No problem. Glad to oblige.

Your question is a multiple one - it has a lot of answers that need addressing.

The 'Sound' or 'Song' of the universe is represented by the eternal AUM or cosmic vibration which underlies the frequency of atoms. This is represented by the Damaru or the kettle drum which Shiva holds. AUM is the non-dual experience of a Divine Logos and is associated with the omnipotent and transcendental form of Shiva, known as Sadashiva or Bhairava.

I prefer to understand that what is behind the whole universe, is the "Dance of Shiva" known as the Tandavam. This is represented by Lord Shiva in 'dance mode' - dancing to the beat of the Damaru...the AUM...transmuting energy into action or will through Maya Shakti or effulgence. This form of Shiva is called Nataraja.

The difference between Kashmir Shaivism, Virashaivism and other schools, is that in Kashmir Shaivism and Virashaivism, Shiva is totally equatable with Brahman in the Nirupa rupa or the "formless form" and can be realised through direct experience of the union of Shiva and Shakti, by way of Tantra and Tantrik practice. This form of Shiva/Shakti - potential energy and manifest energies combined, is called Ardhanarishwara. The realisation of the union of Shiva and Shakti, or the duality of experience, leads one into that non-dual experience of Satchitananda, in which the experiencer understands that "I am" or "I am Shiva"...there is no differentiation between 'self' and Shiva. In Virashaivism, this 'formless form' is represented by the Shiva Lingam or Jyotir Lingam - The 'mark of Shiva' or the "illumunated mark of Shiva".

In the other schools, the Puranic schools of Shaiva thought (with which I am more associated), Shiva is seen as existing in a Saguna form, or with a certain aspects and Divine attribute. It is a more dualistic approach, because there is subject - individual self/soul (atman) and also the absolute soul (paramatman). There is still the distinction there between worshiper and that which is worshiped...or devotee and object of devotion. These schools operate more along the lines of "I cannot be Shiva, because Shiva is Shiva"...and it presents itself most often through Bhakti Yoga, which is 'the Union through Love' more than Jnana Yoga which is 'Union through Knowledge...however, in some cases, the union through love can cause the devotee to experience Shiva as being who they really are anyway.

It is a case of "I am Shiva" or "everything is Brahman/Bhairava" vs "Shiva is in my heart, but I am still separate from Shiva through my awareness of Shiva".

This is the difference and I hoped that I explained it to your satisfaction, but please feel free to ask more questions if the need arises.

Thanks very much for your indepth reply, that's very kind of you. I'll have an indepth read and see if anything arises.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by eputkonen

Yes, 'Truth' is another variation...and I like your version as well.

sat (सत्):[9] In Sanskrit sat means "being, existing", "living, lasting, enduring", "real, actual", "true, good, right", "beautiful, wise, venerable, honest", or "that which really is, existence, essence, true being, really existent, good, true"

I too use the word "Truth" in that context.

[iamthat]

The idea that Sound or Song is behind the universe is common to many teachings - eg Kabir, Guru Nanak, Satsang Beas, etc. When they refer to the Name of God, they are referring to the Shabd or Sound.

Everything is vibration which is heard as Sound and seen as Light. This Light and Sound vibrate within each one of us, and can be contacted and meditated upon.

Tulsidas says

“Enter into the Inner empty Space of Sushumna and listen to the Sound that is beckoning you toward the Divine. This Sound has been vibrating since the beginning of creation. If you want to meet your True Friend (Supreme Being) then constantly and carefully listen to that Sound. This body is the sacred holy place created by the Divine, and within it is found the arch. It is the inner sanctum within, in which is found the Divine Sound reverberating. O practitioner, listen with full concentration; the Sound that originated from the Divine is constantly reverberating and calling you.”

Or Kabir:

“Close your eyes, ears, and mouth, and listen to the Anahad (inner Unstruck Divine Sound).”

Nanak says the same thing:

“Close the three gates and listen to the reverberation of the Divine Sound.”

There are various groups currently teaching Shabd Yoga and these can be found online - if anyone is interested then use your discrimination when considering what is offered.

Peace.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

No problem. Glad to oblige.

Your question is a multiple one - it has a lot of answers that need addressing.

The 'Sound' or 'Song' of the universe is represented by the eternal AUM or cosmic vibration which underlies the frequency of atoms. This is represented by the Damaru or the kettle drum which Shiva holds. AUM is the non-dual experience of a Divine Logos and is associated with the omnipotent and transcendental form of Shiva, known as Sadashiva or Bhairava.

I prefer to understand that what is behind the whole universe, is the "Dance of Shiva" known as the Tandavam. This is represented by Lord Shiva in 'dance mode' - dancing to the beat of the Damaru...the AUM...transmuting energy into action or will through Maya Shakti or effulgence. This form of Shiva is called Nataraja.

The difference between Kashmir Shaivism, Virashaivism and other schools, is that in Kashmir Shaivism and Virashaivism, Shiva is totally equatable with Brahman in the Nirupa rupa or the "formless form" and can be realised through direct experience of the union of Shiva and Shakti, by way of Tantra and Tantrik practice. This form of Shiva/Shakti - potential energy and manifest energies combined, is called Ardhanarishwara. The realisation of the union of Shiva and Shakti, or the duality of experience, leads one into that non-dual experience of Satchitananda, in which the experiencer understands that "I am" or "I am Shiva"...there is no differentiation between 'self' and Shiva. In Virashaivism, this 'formless form' is represented by the Shiva Lingam or Jyotir Lingam - The 'mark of Shiva' or the "illumunated mark of Shiva".

In the other schools, the Puranic schools of Shaiva thought (with which I am more associated), Shiva is seen as existing in a Saguna form, or with a certain aspects and Divine attribute. It is a more dualistic approach, because there is subject - individual self/soul (atman) and also the absolute soul (paramatman). There is still the distinction there between worshiper and that which is worshiped...or devotee and object of devotion. These schools operate more along the lines of "I cannot be Shiva, because Shiva is Shiva"...and it presents itself most often through Bhakti Yoga, which is 'the Union through Love' more than Jnana Yoga which is 'Union through Knowledge...however, in some cases, the union through love can cause the devotee to experience Shiva as being who they really are anyway.

It is a case of "I am Shiva" or "everything is Brahman/Bhairava" vs "Shiva is in my heart, but I am still separate from Shiva through my awareness of Shiva".

This is the difference and I hoped that I explained it to your satisfaction, but please feel free to ask more questions if the need arises.

Thank you once again, for you very indepth reply. It encourages me to maybe study shaivism a little bit and see whats there. My temperament as a jnana friend of mine pointed out some time ago is devotional, bhakti. I knew what he was saying. I play, write poetry so he saw in me lots of bhakti qualities.

The subtle distinctions between the paths and the way they lead to the lord, if you will, are something which could possibly cause unnecessary suffering to a person if they get too caught up with them, so I'm a little bit wary of my ego already wanting to choose the best path, the path that is most suited to a person is the right path, the best path?

Anyways, I heard something interesting that I related to when a shaivite guru said ..you experience bliss, and the interviewer said, how long do you experience it, for hours on end, for days, ? He said no, for 3 or 4 seconds because to experience any longer would mean the end of the physical body. I resonated with what he said somehow.

Thank you.

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by iamthat

The idea that Sound or Song is behind the universe is common to many teachings - eg Kabir, Guru Nanak, Satsang Beas, etc. When they refer to the Name of God, they are referring to the Shabd or Sound.

Everything is vibration which is heard as Sound and seen as Light. This Light and Sound vibrate within each one of us, and can be contacted and meditated upon.

Tulsidas says

“Enter into the Inner empty Space of Sushumna and listen to the Sound that is beckoning you toward the Divine. This Sound has been vibrating since the beginning of creation. If you want to meet your True Friend (Supreme Being) then constantly and carefully listen to that Sound. This body is the sacred holy place created by the Divine, and within it is found the arch. It is the inner sanctum within, in which is found the Divine Sound reverberating. O practitioner, listen with full concentration; the Sound that originated from the Divine is constantly reverberating and calling you.”

Or Kabir:

“Close your eyes, ears, and mouth, and listen to the Anahad (inner Unstruck Divine Sound).”

Nanak says the same thing:

“Close the three gates and listen to the reverberation of the Divine Sound.”

There are various groups currently teaching Shabd Yoga and these can be found online - if anyone is interested then use your discrimination when considering what is offered.

Peace.

Thanks,

Yes that sounds very good and helpful. The Irish poet Patrick Kavanagh said in his poem Advent. "...will awake for us and bring You and me to the yard gate to watch the whins And the bog-holes, cart-tracks, old stables where Time begins.." I guess many poets and artists have alluded to the same thing ? Where time begins i suppose refers to that sound that those great poets and sages you mention speak about.

You got me engaged anyway lol. thanks for your reply :)

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Anyways, I heard something interesting that I related to when a shaivite guru said ..you experience bliss, and the interviewer said, how long do you experience it, for hours on end, for days, ? He said no, for 3 or 4 seconds because to experience any longer would mean the end of the physical body. I resonated with what he said somehow.

THIS! oh so much of THIS!

In another thread about the bliss of satchidananda, people were going on about how they were constantly in this state....and yet, I could not even bear it for more than a few moments at a time. Maybe 'their bliss' was different to 'my bliss'...but bliss, is bliss.

When I come before an image of Shiva and drop my mind into the heart, surrendering the ego and allowing that bliss to take hold, it isn't long before I have to become aware of my own relationship of existence once more. I can gaze deeply into the abyss, but I need to leave before the abyss starts gazing back...I can put up with it for maybe 10-15 seconds but I know that nobody can exist in this state full-time...it's impossible, so whatever bliss they only think they feel, isn't it.

I only do this once a week or even once a fortnight...I cannot do it any more than that, without it affecting me physically and mentally....at least more than it does now anyway. I'm not willing to risk that....so I spend the rest of the time just loving Him and being in love with Him, as opposed to the unification of my soul with His.

[Shivani Devi]

This is why I identify with Shiva so much and I am a Shaivite.

The very first time those few precious seconds of bliss happened, I was 14 years old and I was in Malaysia with my family.

My family wanted to go and look at the 'human spectacle' of Thaipusam (a festival honouring the 'son of Shiva' - Lord Murugan). They just wanted to see all of the 'show/display' of it in the cultural setting...I was more interested in that divine trance state, which allowed them to be pierced with 'the Vel'...skewers, tridents, fishooks etc without a trace of blood nor pain....this was very intriguing for an impressionable 14yr old.

During the course of the procession, I became separated from my parents when I stopped to eat coconuts which had been smashed upon the ground to purify the road...I wandered around aimlessly looking for them, until I wound up inside a temple.

There, I saw a picture which had me totally transfixed and captivated...I could not remove my eyes off it, nor stop the well of tears that were building up in my eyes....inside, I was like; 'you are so beautiful..I mean, you look so ugly, and yet...there is something about you that transcends appearance...I don't know who/what you are, but it's like I have known you for all my short life..." then, unknowingly, I allowed myself to slip into the bliss of Shiva...I said..."Who/what are you?" What is this?" "What just happened?" and I heard a voice say "Have you forgotten me already my beloved? I am Shiva". Then I asked "are You God?" and Shiva said; "I AM"....by that stage, the whole experience was over...I could no longer stand the intensity of it and had to snap out of the full Arul Vaaku trance state.

This was the first time...and I knew...I just knew.

It was not long after that, I found my parents at the local police station...of course I was grounded for the rest of my stay in Malaysia, locked in my hotel room with fruit and water.

I was alone in there for days...I was in semi religious ecstasy, but also bored out of my skull...so I just said to myself..."I wonder what this 'Shiva God' is and how do I pray to it?".

Then I heard that voice again saying "look under the bed"...I obeyed it...and right up under a dusty and musty bed, wedged between the leg of the bed and the wall was a book...I reached in and got it...dusted the cover off and read the title; "Lord Siva and His Worship" by Swami Sivananda.

Thus began the huge roller-coaster ride.

The next actual experience of Shiva bliss was in Bali, two years later...but I'll relate that story another time.

[Shivani Devi]

After about 6 months, the whole experience kinda wore off, as I put it to the back of my mind to concentrate on just 'being a normal kid'.

Two years later, I was in Bali, Indonesia and my parents got invited to a prayer ceremony at the local temple.

The invitation came with strict instructions that we were to remain at the very back of the temple room, far away from everybody and to just observe...remaining as totally quiet as possible, out of respect for the temple and their 'Gods'.

My parents accepted the invitation and we all went along.

There were about 50 or so people praying to the local, tribal and Hindu gods...offering prayer baskets of this and that...offering fruit...chanting mantras and all...I liked what I saw, but I was bored...I wanted to do what they were doing, not just sit there while I watched them do it.

So, I turned around and whispered to my mother; 'I have a banana in my bag, may I go up and offer it to Shiva please?' and of course she whispered back; 'we are here as guests! we were told to sit down right at the back here and not make a sound...no! you can not go up there and do what they are doing...just...NO...sit down, shut up and I don't want to hear another word out of you".

So I closed my eyes and said to myself "stupid mother!...I hate her!" however, the sound of the slow Gamelan gongs were starting to do strange things to me and it wasn't long before tears started pouring out my eyes...I was still saying to myself "stupid mother...I hate her...why won't she let me worship You" but things were starting to change inside me...I was saying within myself "okay Shiva (Ciwa)...I can see now that you don't want my banana...what else can I give a 'God who has everything' then?...I don't know if my heart and soul is already Yours or not...but You can have them because I'm not using them ..." and I allowed myself to slip into Shiva bliss again...the tears were endless...but I could only stay there for a minute, at the most, before the sound of the Gamelan snapped me back into 'reality'.

After everything was over, we were about to leave, when the person who invited us, came up and said to my parents..."the head priest of the village wishes to see your daughter...to refuse him would be deeply offensive".

Now far be it for my parents to offend anybody in a foreign land, so I went to see what that was all about.

When I arrived, we sat face to face gazing in each other's eyes for a few seconds before I spoke:

"Namaste, Mr. Priest - can you please tell me why I have been summoned thus"?

The priest said "Ciwa told me to tell you that he ate the banana and found it delicious, but your heart...much, much sweeter than banana".

My jaw dropped...I was like "how did you see this?"

The priest said..."the light...the light around you...so bright...light of Ciwa. You belong to him...you are Hindu".

I said: "What does this 'light of Ciwa' look like and how come I cannot see it?"

He then turned towards a gas pressure lamp which was dying...pumping it up more and more until I thought it was going to explode...then turning it up on full luminescence. I tried to look directly at it, but I couldn't for more than a few seconds...before my eyes started to really hurt".

Then the priest said to me; "Light of Ciwa...like that".

So I said "how do you know that this light is Ciwa-light? it could be Vishnu-light? or Brahma-light?"

Then he said "no..no! not Brahma-light or Vishnu-light...It is Ciwa light because different God have different colour-light. Brahma-light is red light. Vishnu light is blue light...Ciwa light is white light. The light around you is pure white...like big pearl.

He then closed his eyes and nodded his head with a 'yes...yes! I shall do it' and with that, he took off a gold Omkar (Aum) pendant from around his neck and was about to place it around mine...with "Ciwa said to give you this...you are Dewi (goddess)...married to Ciwa".

At first, I didn't want to receive it, but his hurt expression at my refusal was too much for my heart to bear...so I said; "okay, I will marry Ciwa...I will be Hindu person".

The priest became overjoyed and welcomed me back to the temple at any time.

I was then re-united with my parents and they went 'what was THAT all about?"

I said "the priest called me to say that God enjoyed eating the banana I had in my bag".

My mother was like "bull...there was no way he could have known that...you lie!"

I said..."how can it be a lie when God himself told him so?"

Suffice to say...I was grounded again for a week for 'meddling in the affairs of others which had nothing to do with me'. I didn't care though. All I knew was that by now, I had fallen madly in love with Shiva and that sustained me....so I got to work learning ancient Balinese Sanskrit - the Brahmi script - so I could go to the Wayang Kulit puppet plays and bloody understand what they were singing about.

[django]

Thanks for this great story necro, no wonder you are a Shaivite.