I'm Sorry Everyone - Here's The Reason I Acted That Way

There may be scientific proof out there if you look for it hard enough. This forum doesn't require degrees in science - Note the name 'Spiritual Forums'. Look to science if that’s the proof you need. A couple of governments tried using astral projection and long distance viewing years ago. They had enough 'proof' to spend the time and resources. I think it was given up because they couldn't control it. Technology is easier. But there's a frightening thought, boys and girls, adepts would be much easier for them to find now days, in these forums.

I personally don't believe in astral projection and I really dislike the term. It is very belief-centric and, at the same time, misleading. If you use the term with someone who has never heard of it, they will most likely think that you are talking about something that is astronomy/astrology-related. I've seen this happen so many times.

Meanwhile, the term "lucid dreaming" is more to the point, requires less explaining and is more inviting (doesn't alienate anyone - and this is good because it will attract both spiritualists and materialists) and more people can benefit from its practicality.

Furthermore, I see no reason to assume that I can't possibly be having a wake-initiated lucid dream just because I have experienced the sensation of separating from my physical body.

By the way, nothing lies outside of science. That is a ridiculous statement. Science doesn't have all the answers but it continues to evolve and it is the best method we have for observing and measuring reality. Science aids our understanding of it (and sometimes can raise more questions). It's ongoing work but make no mistake about this: if something exists then it is there to be discovered.

If there really are such things as ghosts and spirits then they will be found eventually although I think they would have been found by now if they really existed.

[Podshell]

Those scientists apear to be cheating or rather ignoring the fundamentals, some of the basics of observable science.

For instance we can observe a living human being and a dead human being, now what has changed? whatever the animating factor is has gone from one of them.

No. They haven't ignored anything. The life force is gone. That's as far as they will go. Nobody knows if people survive physical death or not. I happen to think that, rather than the self being a product of "spirit", it is more of a resultant symptom from quantum interactions within physical matter. Once the body ceases to function, certain currents no longer flow freely and the self sense ceases.

Imagine that consciousness is a bit like gravity. Gravity arises and becomes stronger overtime due to the condensation of matter in space. Objects are said to weigh in space and thus attract each other. There are also quantum theories about gravity such as the one that employs "gravitons". Yes, science uses a lot of theories but these are only there as possibilities which are tested and explored. They won't cling to anything definitively until everything makes sense and solid proof is verified by more than one party.

Gravity is still elusive in part but hardly anyone assigns any paranormal forces at work to explain it. Consciousness, on the other hand, seems to attract a lot of mysticism. Why can't it be a resultant illusion arising from a biological supercomputer such as the brain? I see no reason why this possibility should be dismissed when the brain continues to be studied. Moreover, we can hardly dismiss the fact that people can lose their mental faculties when they are brain damaged or suffer with illnesses such as Alzheimer's.

As I said at the beginning, the life force is gone. It does not apply any more when cells die and cease communication. In this mundane view, you, as a whole, will be as dead as a flake of skin that you remove from your head. The living factor is lost.

Like the appearance of a strawberry pie changing when you put it in a blender! Its contents are mixed and when you put it back on the plate you will find that its colour and shape have changed dramatically. The molecules have been rearranged. You can't call it a strawberry pie any more. It is more like pink goo - and yet, all its contents are there.

Like metal and wood being the same energy on a subatomic level. They are the same and yet, the way their atoms are arranged and how they interact with one another makes all the difference on a macro level! Hard to believe, innit? Hence something similar must be going on that differentiates between animate and inanimate matter. Dead or alive?

[Podshell]

The invisible forces exist prior to matter being formed/moulded into shape though, the magnetic shells of the Earth for example form the matter into its shape, to simplify, a pattern of iron filings on paper is formed by a magnet behind it, these patterns can be repeated with the magnet, the iron filings do not create the pattern that is part of the magnet (some interaction takes place though especially with dynamic magnets concerning planetary shape etc I think)

The invisible forces certainly do exist and how they interact in a physical reality and affect other elements can be observed. That's how we know they are there.

I don't have a theory of everything and neither does anyone. That Thomas Campbell that many subscribe to has many holes in his laced with a lot of mumbo jumbo for his lemmings.

The majority of the processes in the universe are unconscious to you anyway. Objectively, if you could get a grand perspective of what is happening within time and space, you would realise that you as a being are nothing but a peculiar spark.

I honestly think that dead people are no more. The deceased are unconscious. Whether the universe decides (happens) to bring back that "spark" is another story. Maybe you can be born again in a million years time as another life-form but with no recollection of this life. Time would not have passed for you since you were unconscious to it.

It would be like dying one moment and being born the next - no spiritual afterlife - no need for a ghost to wander bodilessly - in this view, which I am more open to, we are the universe experiencing itself. Philosophical or not, without conscious beings the universe cannot be said to exist. In a way, you can say that I am open to an afterlife, just not the New Age/Spiritual type...

Otherwise, if my theory is wrong, then death really is the cessation of being forever and we are never brought back. It is paradoxical though, because, if we don't come back then the universe ceases to exist altogether...

[astralsuzy]

My mother would say no one will ever know what really happens. We think this or that but in the end no one really knows. We should not worry about it and we should think more of this life. Trying to work out what happens will only cause frustration and arguments.

Originally Posted by res

So if i understand this correctly we on this site are your lab experiment to be poked and provoked in to giving you the proof that you require. If we dont then your ego's can reign supreme as head of the department.

For me personally i dont feel that your objective is worthy of taking someones time and energy or that your crusade is honerable enough for me to participate in . I have met up with another on multiple occasions and confirmed the information that we shared in the astral. I could validate a lot of the theories and actually assist you in experiencing some of them for yourselves. I almost said i would help you yesterday and would have if my lunch break didnt end though i am thankful that it did. Why do i feel that i got to experience this, because it was for the sole purpose of healing others. I doubt that i would have had the same result if my ambition was driven by writing a book to enhance my ego. Im not sure that sneeking you in to the cue is the best way to go about helping you have an astral experience that you may not be ready for.

So summerlander came here to challenge people because as you said" He noticed I had joined this forum and checked it out then realized it went against his beliefs". I am not sure that this is sharing a spiritual experience and may go against the beleifs of this web site and its purpose to provided a place that people can feel safe to open up and explore their spiritual beliefs. Joining for this reason is not very honerable either nor appreciated by many im sure.

Once you step over the boundary of science in the astral phenomena it is no longer with in the bounds of science, therefore how can anyone gain scientific proof of something that does not exist within the scientific community. To believe in it will most probably see you out of that community and in to ours.

Please forgive me for being a bit blunt as this is not expressed with anger though i do believe that anyone that has to quote anothers words from a book to prove a point does not have the personal experience themselves to be given due respect on that matter.

I think this sums it up well.

I don't know which was posted first - this, or the "PROVE IT!" thread (it looks like this was second?? all I know is I found the 'PROVE IT' thread first and responded quite strongly)...but I agree with res. And since for me it's been a hard and dangerous road, not only do I feel like "why would I waste my time?" but it demeans all the risk I've ever taken, all the threats I've ever received for what I do, all the times my life's been in danger, and all the things I've done for most of my life. So for me, it made me angry (I'm a very blunt person, you'll know when I'm frustrated and I feel it's better than trying to pretend I'm not) -- I'm on the other side of the fence, where life threw it into my lap and the moment I demanded proof, big and sometimes bad things happened.

"Astral" for me, of course, is only one part of a multifaceted approach, so to me it's no different than the rest of what I do...for many others it's just a matter of wandering around in the astral or talking to things or whatnot. But personally, my response is borne out of something far different but using the same channels, and far heavier of a subject matter. (Example: Most use radio waves for music or random chatter between truckers. Cops might use it for dangerous police work. See what I mean?)

People's lives have been made, destroyed, and even ended because of this type of stuff. I do NOT take kindly to the skeptics who tell me I'm nuts - I used to be one of them in some ways, because I once said to those who fate would have it to tell me the truth, "You're insane" (I mean who wouldn't?)...and they decided I was worth proving it to, because they knew I could use it well. But for someone who's quite obviously unstable in their approach and has something to prove, it's no wonder your proof has never been given! - you could meet someone skilled enough to end your very life using these things and they'd only laugh you out of the room. Why? Because we aren't your jesters, we aren't out to prove a darn thing, and we certainly don't need another greenhorn running around being irresponsible anyways. Just like cops don't hire idiots who just want to wave their gun around and be macho (or at least they're not supposed to). If I have to spell it out even further, I swear I might as well make sure you're on the "do not ever hire" list so to speak.

As for your average, music-and-chatter-channel astral people -- talk to them, not to me. They can't really prove what they do anyways though (at least not on the level I think you're asking for), because it's generally ONLY used for communication. The most they can prove is essentially, "Do you read me? over.". But if that's what you need so be it. Get your proof and go on your way.

Actually ,12 padams is not sorry .
You can check what kind of person he is at obe4u.
"Let's see how powerful these astral projectors are" his thread where he
talks only nice things about people from SF.
I hope I won't get another warning for saying 12padams and summerlander
are probably some kind of sect.

So nice to know this "26 year old female astral projector" is worthy of mention! She sounds like a really lame chick.

http://forum.obe4u.com/index.php?topic=1102.0

By the by, I wasn't threatening you, 12padams. Just illustrating a point that going around bullying in the astral isn't a good idea. If that truly seemed like a threat then that's your own issues talking. I have no interest in threatening you or anyone else.

I smell a troll in our midst.