No God

[running]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Running, I wouldn't speculate on my life either I get everything you're saying and then some

Being present in the moment is simply a conscious act, whether we acknowledge that or not. And it is 100% core to a peaceful awakened mind in service to compassionate, centred (equanimous) awakened heart. We can have these things without awakening under a variety of conditions, too. But once awakened, we either rise to being here now (a conscious act), or choose not to do so (also always a conscious act).

My experience is that of many others, but I will own it as mine. IME, we are much more deeply centred in the sublime joy of being (the bliss) when we recognise and honour our own presence in our being and doing. Including in our experience of the foundational bliss of What Is. And that is why sublime joy adds to our humanity and our uniqueness and our interbeing immeasurably and never dilutes it.

You're saying the bliss just is once awakened (to centre in right-alignment - this is the process Jonesboy and many others have described...it's not immediate and it involves the learning process I note next.

Yes, I agree...and when we awaken, we realise it pulls us back to centre like a compass if we seek to experience bliss that is not right-aligned (the learning process). B**** and moan all we like, that is the deal hahaha. The bliss is a gift and also a compass at centre. This is what many resist...the acknowledgement that this too is What Is. Yah. They have to control it, to cherry pick it...to make it all about the amorphous oneness of bliss that we simply partake of like milk from a teat, and not the unique presence of each of us and how we consciously co-create in every moment with every action, from bliss. Two extremes, but just to make a point. Both are true and neither exists without the other.

I agree the bliss just is once awakened, and also that once awakened, we are always making conscious choices. Like bliss, rising consciousness simply just is. Funny how they are foundationally entwined and cannot be separated, eh? Isn't it though?

It's because it's all the same truth at centre to which we awaken. We may cherry pick parts of it to our liking, but that doesn't mean anything except it's where we are at the mo. And living in interbeing with others means everyone gets a say and everyone gets to push back when the cherry picking gets overly one-sided, repetitive, or tiresome, LOL. We have been under a tyranny of human lusts and desires (for power/control, more possessions, constant sexual gratification) for all of human history. So we could use a little balance here, and IMO bliss is unbalanced from the get-go without grounding it at centre in authentic love.

So more diaologue is always good. And I am totally cool with disagreeing so long as we all get a say and no one is shut down.

Peace & blessings
7L

your describing your experience from what i can gather. i don't personally know about a bliss that is here and not over there. the process goes from experiences of bliss. to longer periods of time. to permenant. once past experiences of. periods of time of. to its just always there. then your in a space that there is nowhere that it is not. its here. its there. its everywhere. and in everything. its not a choice experience, an alignment expereince, but an effrotless, everything experience. which is why people call it nondual.

on the other hand. the mind has ideas of preferences. the emotional body has preferences. bliss does not remove the mind or the ability to have emotions. so they remain as they were as a compass in life. i dont have the answers to life for other people. hopefully i have some for myself. people get to make there own life decisions and hopefully they work out well. i make mine and hopefully they work out well.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

With respect, Jonesboy, I think much of this is semantics and perspective, and that is the journey in a nutshell. My term authentic love is simply a shorthand for being and doing lovingkindness from equanimity in each moment. Which is at core simply actively seeking and supporting the highest good of all equally to one, and of one equally to all. I have described this many times. And I find ALL major traditions reveal this truth variously -- and that Buddhism does so rather explicitly and in very concrete terms (often using the terms lovingkindness and equanimity, both key aspects of authentic love). I would advise not too get too hung up on Western limitations in our understanding of authentic love as being and doing, which many struggle to even conceive of or entertain.

On the one hand, from within a certain context and understanding, of course I can agree or state that what we experience simply is.

And from another equally true perspective or context, I can agree or state that our perspectives and our conscious choices are mutually causal. That each creates or contributes meaningfully to the other. Certainly that they are ultimately mutually causal.

And further, I can also agree or state also that our experiences and our choices are mutually causal...and this one is even easier to understand for most folks.

So...I'll leave it there, and I stand by all I've said.

First, what we experience and what we acknowledge are often 2 different things -- and they do not overlap and merge until and unless we allow it, which is ultimately a conscious choice (we take over and over again in each moment).

Next, what we acknowledge on occasion and what we continually rise to in the moment, in the being with and sitting with ourselves, with our conscious mindful presence -- these too are 2 different things until & unless we take the conscious choice (again, repeatedly) to allow and support being here now with ourselves on a regular basis, for the good, the bad, and the ugly.

Then, there is going further from there, regarding how we will (or won't) consciously choose to align ourselves with the good wolves and the right-aligned bliss. We can accept all we are in the moment, denying nothing, and still use our discernment in right-alignment. In fact, this acceptance is the only way to discern wisely and take right-aligned choices.

Those are all separate things, and no matter how seamless and habitual it may become to integrate them all with ease, it is still a conscious act in each moment to do so. As there is only ever this moment. And we can be present to it and consciously decide how we will open to bliss, or not. That we will do and be and engage in this way and not in others.

There is discernment and choice there, as in everything we do, on top of the foundational bliss of being.
Opening to the foundational bliss in each moment is IMO the very fruit of consciously aligning with centre and consciously deciding to live there in each moment.

Peace & blessings
7L

All of that is still a mental exercise.

As I have mentioned to Gem, thoughts are not imaginary it is about the clarity of them.

Clarity is what we should all be working on and is really what you are wanting to reach for.

An aspect of the Primordial State is clarity.

The manifestation of the primordial state in all its aspects,
its "clarity," on the other hand, is called the nature. It is said
to be "self-perfected" (lhun grub), because it exists spontaneously
from the beginning, like the sun which shines in
space. Clarity is the pure quality of all thought and of all
perceived phenomena, uncontaminated by mental judgment.
For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment, even if
this phase of perception only lasts for a fraction of a second.
Then, in a second phase, mental judgment enters into the
situation and one categorizes the perception, thinking,
"That's a flower, it's red, it has a specific scent, and so on."
Developing from this, attachment and aversion, acceptance
and rejection all arise, with the consequent creation of karma and transmigration. Clarity is the phase in which perception
is vivid and present, but the mind has not yet entered
into action. It is the spontaneous manifestation of the
individual's state. The same is true for thoughts: if we don't
follow them, and don't become caught up in mental judgment,
they too are part of our natural clarity.

With clarity all things are perfect, all things as you would say are loved equally.

Clarity is achieved by clearing out ones obstructions, not by doing nice things.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by running

your describing your experience from what i can gather. i don't personally know about a bliss that is here and not over there. the process goes from experiences of bliss. to longer periods of time. to permenant. once past experiences of. periods of time of. to its just always there. then your in a space that there is nowhere that it is not. its here. its there. its everywhere. and in everything. its not a choice experience, an alignment expereince, but an effrotless, everything experience. which is why people call it nondual.

on the other hand. the mind has ideas of preferences. the emotional body has preferences. bliss does not remove the mind or the ability to have emotions. so they remain as they were as a compass in life. i dont have the answers to life for other people. hopefully i have some for myself. people get to make there own life decisions and hopefully they work out well. i make mine and hopefully they work out well.

Running, hello there.

Just as I said with Jonesboy, all things we experience AND do AND think are all ultimately mutually causal. Once awakened and further, once the bliss has become all-present, even still.

Even still no matter how habituated and effortless, you either consciously show up to your experience, to being and doing in the moment...or you consciously do not show up to take ownership.
Beyond that, you then either consciously choose to take ownership in the moment, or you consciously choose not to do so.

You can experience the bliss of being by choosing misalignment and service to self. After awakening, this is always ultimately a conscious choice.
Or you can choose to experience/be present to your experience of bliss by actions which you choose in right alignment.
There is no getting away from conscious choice after awakening -- and of where and how we choose to show up to experience the sublime joy of being.

So all you think and do and feel are conscious choices within which you experience bliss/life -- in whatever form, whether persistent and momentary bliss.
Bliss is What Is and is always "out there", but it's we individually who experience this for ourselves. So our experience of bliss/life and the context of what we intent/think/do/say -- that is ours. Ours to experience, and ours to own.

I think what you're saying is you own your experiences and take responsibility for your stuff, and it's to others to own theirs. Agreed. That is what I am saying too. Our conscious presence in our own life is ours to own.
It's already the reality of What Is. Once we have awakened, it's just down to whether or not we have yet accepted that reality.

For me, the experience of What Is, is all-present. That is a given And the same for many, many others. You as well.
So it's what WE each do and say about that which is the infinity of diversity. That's the fascinating stuff IMO...how & when each of us come to our own acceptance of our awakening.

It's also the only way any of us can ever truly meet in the middle in anything real and substantive (enduring in spirit). Where I have an inkling that your bliss is not just momentary, amoral, and at the expense of others -- but rather is something I and the rest of humanity can respect and regard and even trust as true and persisting in our human community and in our human interaction with one another.

The person who seeks to free ride whilst exploiting or using others...who gets high, or uses/abuses others, who oppresses others, and so forth in his or her experience of bliss/life...
Those who perpetrates misalignment in their experience of bliss/life, and who do not take ownership of their intent/thought/word/deed but rather only seek to put ownership onto others...
etc...That is a predatory, tyrannical, imbalanced experience of bliss, one not authentically loving to others (supporting their highest good equally). Even if the individual is awakened to the bliss of What Is in each moment.

As in, the rest of humanity need (me included) to get away from all these amoral bliss seekers, because they can and do cause much of rest of us great harm and have done since the dawn of time. So IMO probably most experiences of bliss -- however deeply it's experienced, even spiritually -- have not shown themselves to be right-aligned or to the highest good of all equally to the self. Because even awakening for most had not progressed beyond simple awareness and pursuit of bliss, full stop. But nonetheless misaligned experiences and choices -- even whilst experiencing the bliss of What Is -- are still always conscious choices after awakening.

On the other hand when you say, yes, I am responsible for being present to myself and for taking ownership of the context of my life. For where I choose to be and for what I choose to do whilst experiencing my bliss....
That IS being authentically loving in your experience of bliss. Rather than being amoral and utilitarian in your experience of bliss.

And that in a nutshell is the power of awakening:
-being present to your life (i.e., your bliss) in the moment (a fact post awakening, certainly at a certain point) -- eventually it's a 24/7 thing just as you say ;)
-taking conscious choices in the moment (a fact post awakening)
-and last, of owning your presence and your choices -- now this bit is UP TO US and is not automatic...as that's our free will

Peace & blessings
7L

[sky]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

All of that is still a mental exercise.

As I have mentioned to Gem, thoughts are not imaginary it is about the clarity of them.

Clarity is what we should all be working on and is really what you are wanting to reach for.

An aspect of the Primordial State is clarity.



With clarity all things are perfect, all things as you would say are loved equally.

Clarity is achieved by clearing out ones obstructions, not by doing nice things.

'For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment '


I call this observing without thought...

Originally Posted by running

but i could watch and feel my hand chopped off and it would have no effect on the bliss. it may and probably would rise. why? as i said it isn't an emotion. and why may it rise? because chakras open as a self defense mechanism which opens the flood gates. being flooded with spirit activates the nervous system. would i be afraid? yes. would it hurt? yes. just like one can see and hear. one can experience bliss with emotions and the mind.

So this Bliss that floods. Where does it come from?

Goddess/feminine energy(Earth)? Like Qi or Chi? Or is it all ready stored in the body or both?

Where does bliss go to when your hand is cut off ?(hypothetically)

Your whole nervous system or to the hand? And to do what?

So this Bliss is an energy and other people use the word Bliss to describe joy/happiness/delight?

Does this Bliss vibrate and or buzz and move with vital feminine/life energy?

Sorry for all the questions Running but this example you gave just stirred up questions in me.
I wondered if this was similar to Qi or Chi in any way.

If you don't want to say or discuss it I am fine with that.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

All of that is still a mental exercise.

As I have mentioned to Gem, thoughts are not imaginary it is about the clarity of them.

Clarity is what we should all be working on and is really what you are wanting to reach for.

An aspect of the Primordial State is clarity.



With clarity all things are perfect, all things as you would say are loved equally.

Clarity is achieved by clearing out ones obstructions, not by doing nice things.

What Is is not an either/or scenario, Jonesboy. These are all mutually causal. Clearing obstructions and being and doing authentic love in the moment.
I.e., it's not "nice things" versus the rest of What Is. LOL...BTW the phrasing of which seems extremely patronising and belitting

Point being, it's doing and being lovingkindness and equanimity in the moment. And with clarity and discernment, we may accept the both/and nature of What Is.
Clarity and discernment are aspects of equanimity (traditionally), and both lovingkindness and equanimity are intrinsic to authentic love...but arguably, equanimous lovingkindness yields the greatest insight of all. For oneself, for others, and for all that is.

To me the phrase "loving all things equally" is vague and amorphous, meaningless, and ultimately false. What does that mean? Is it a feeling? Perhaps an orientation? Merely accepting all as they are? That's pretty bland and meaningless. Can we say any of this is "guaranteed" for us mere mortals? On the other hand, being and doing lovingkindness from equanimity (centre) in the moment is much more concrete and meaningful, and allows for my ownership, agency, free will, growth and expansion, as well as for my unique individuated consciousness (and yours likewise, etc.), which is distinct and relates to every other soul and thing in existence differently and NOT the same regarding feeling, relationship, acquaintanceship, karma, etc.

So, if we align with centre, we can strive to take the most loving and equanimous action at hand which is appropriate to our relationship...and that is key. Politics is not the only thing that is local, LOL. Bliss is local. Life is local. Metta is local. Everything is local, and from there, we know intrinsically what is right and true at the broader, higher levels (fractal). We have to start where we are, and ground our experiences in spirit as deeply and concretely as possible in every aspect of our existence. Moment-to-moment. That too is truth. So, our actions in support of the highest good change as we do. From here, however, we can at least begin to approach things like sustainable behaviours, and sustainable social norms, human rights and Gaian rights and how to support societies on these things. Based on what is in the highest good of all equally to the one, and to the one, equally to all.

So why split hairs? I have the right of it broadly, and presumably so do you...and if not, I'll let you speak for yourself to further clarify

Peace & blessings
7L

[r6r6]

Originally Posted by sky123

'For example, when we see a flower, we first perceive
its image without the mind entering into judgment 'I call this observing without thought...

This so truth and Ive often made clear, experience precedes thought as concepts.

Other animals have much less access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts but their nervous system has just as much access to the experience.

Monkeies access to mind is simpler i.e. has less access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts.

Human nervous system does four thing things the monkey nervous syste does not do, or at least to a much greater degree;

1} harvest information objectively, ---observation--

2} sorts the information into catagories, --beautiful, ugly, pleasant, silly, Wow!, harsh, snaggaly etc----

3} winnows out patterns and principles, ---2*n = even number---

4} applies subjectively those patterns and principles to technologies that support and sustain self, family, then hopefully humanity, the ecological environmental integrity as wellas support of the integrity of Uni-V-erse

This above is mostly paraphrasing Bucky Fuller

[running]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

So this Bliss that floods. Where does it come from?

Goddess/feminine energy(Earth)? Like Qi or Chi? Or is it all ready stored in the body or both?

Where does bliss go to when your hand is cut off ?(hypothetically)

Your whole nervous system or to the hand? And to do what?

So this Bliss is an energy and other people use the word Bliss to describe joy/happiness/delight?

Does this Bliss vibrate and or buzz and move with vital feminine/life energy?

Sorry for all the questions Running but this example you gave just stirred up questions in me.
I wondered if this was similar to Qi or Chi in any way.

If you don't want to say or discuss it I am fine with that.

1. bliss is the feminine aspect of the divine. the movement that feels like water through the body and mind that excites the nervous system in joy.

that current is oneness that is in us and all around us. when you feel a storm and it gives a joy in the body. that is it. strongly associated with the sky and earth. its the current in all things.

i dont know about chi? sorry.

2. bliss isn't about having or not having a hand. the point i was making is in fear and pain bliss is there. because it doesn't come from an emotion or the mind.

bliss is in the whole body and mind from the nervous system. its not exactly the same everywhere equally.

3. it is joyful in experience. intoxicating qualitys.

4. vibrates. yes. feminine. yes. life energy. yes.

hope that helps. had to answer quick. out of time. feel free to ask more if u wish. will have time later.

[sky]

Originally Posted by running

1. bliss is the feminine aspect of the divine. the movement that feels like water through the body and mind that excites the nervous system in joy.

that current is oneness that is in us and all around us. when you feel a storm and it gives a joy in the body. that is it. strongly associated with the sky and earth. its the current in all things.

i dont know about chi? sorry.

2. bliss isn't about having or not having a hand. the point i was making is in fear and pain bliss is there. because it doesn't come from an emotion or the mind.

bliss is in the whole body and mind from the nervous system. its not exactly the same everywhere equally.

3. it is joyful in experience. intoxicating qualitys.

4. vibrates. yes. feminine. yes. life energy. yes.

hope that helps. had to answer quick. out of time. feel free to ask more if u wish. will have time later.

Talking about Storms... You might be able to work this out for me
Why can I smell a Storm hours before it arrives, why do I get a Migraine which disappears when the Storm arrives, they make me feel yucky and off balance. I don't enjoy them at all.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

This so truth and Ive often made clear, experience precedes thought as concepts.

Other animals have much less access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts but their nervous system has just as much access to the experience.

Monkeies access to mind is simpler i.e. has less access to metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts.

Human nervous system does four thing things the monkey nervous syste does not do, or at least to a much greater degree;

1} harvest information objectively, ---observation--

2} sorts the information into catagories, --beautiful, ugly, pleasant, silly, Wow!, harsh, snaggaly etc----

3} winnows out patterns and principles, ---2*n = even number---

4} applies subjectively those patterns and principles to technologies that support and sustain self, family, then hopefully humanity, the ecological environmental integrity as wellas support of the integrity of Uni-V-erse

This above is mostly paraphrasing Bucky Fuller

r6 hello there!

Agreed...that is another way of saying (for humanity) that all things are local.

And that the fractal nature of reality [in its entirety] allows for scalability of the foundational truths we consciously apprehend in (and consciously extend from) our moment-to-moment being and doing.

Peace & blessings
7L